Bulgarians : Ideas to make them attractive in RM tournaments

[SMUM15236]

Since another Red Bull event is knocking at the door and Bulgarians being a good pick in EW settings, people may forget how unattractive they are in RM tournaments. They were picked just ONCE this year in tournaments. It was during the SAX cup. Other than that they were played once in Warlords3 qualifier. And they were also the least picked civ last year if I recall collectly.

Now, I understand people who think Bulgarians are fine as they are doing okay in the ladder and some civ will be neglected as we have 45 civs now. Thing is no other civ is suffering this situation. All other civs are having their moment to shine. While Bulgarians get their time only during Red Bull Wololo tournaments.

The reason can be found very easily. They don’t have an alternative pierce damage dealing unit like Conquistador to compensate the lack of Xbow. Not having an eco bonus is also responsible.

Here are some of my ideas to make them appealing -

1. Siege Bonus : Food discount on SW techs come too late. They need something in Castle Age. Back in Age of Kings (1999), Scorpions used to be benefitted from Fletching, Bodkin arrow and Bracer. This will be a perfect bonus for them because they have a food discount on blacksmith techs too. Siege Engineers may need to be removed to balance though.

2. Cav Archer Bonus : CA just naturally goes with Bulgarians Cavalry army. Even in Ivaylo campaign, if you start with an army, you always have some CA. I’ll propose a complete unique and interesting bonus - “CA can be trained from Stable”. The surprise element will definitely attract pros.

3. Strengthening their “Infantry & Cavalry” civ identity : “Scout Cavalry can be trained from Barracks.” This will also enhance their early game strength.

4. Stone Bonus : Some people asked latest Spanish like bonus but for stone. “Get 20 stone for researching a tech”.

5. Tower Bonus : Stone miners can drop off at Towers". Will help them with a Krepost follow up or dropping multiple TCs with the saved stone from TC.

[Zelley00]

@SMUM15236

While Bulgarians get their time only during Red Bull Wololo tournaments.

Do they ? In the first final of RBW qualofications, there was questions when the pick was used in game. And the performance was not stellar either.

@SMUM15236

The reason can be found very easily. They don’t have an alternative pierce damage dealing unit like Conquistador to compensate the lack of Xbow. Not having an eco bonus is also responsible.

Well it is not “one” reason. And I would argue these 2 weaknesses are fine if we accept the civ design. Byzantines/Magyars hold their own very well without eco bonus, so no eco bonus can work. I did not see recent high level Slav performances using xbows, it is usually scouts + skirms + knights + monks + mangonels.

I would say the problem is more that the civ is not good enough at what it is supposed to be good at (infantry, cavalry, tech switches).

• We could have konniks buffed to a level where you can only face then with camels / pikes / melee UUs, which the Bulgarian player would answer with LS (if nit against Teutonic knights).
• We could have the blacksmith upgrades being so cheap (ex. no food cost) that Bulgarians army is always properly upgraded.

As much as people complaim that between Slavs and Bulgarians, one often feels as a weaker version of the other, they still have a distinct flavor (especially CA vs booming + monks), so I do not see why it would hurt to make Bulgarians food discount match Slav farming over a head to head game, so that both civs have equivalent firepower in a skirm+knights skirmish until mid imperial age. So everytime someone picks Slavs, we could think the same would more or less work with Bulgarians. Maybe Bulgarians need sanctity ? I dont kniw.

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For the suggestions:

1. 9 range castle age scorpions sounds way too strong. This would need a complete redesign of the unit.

2. and 3. I dont like regular units being trained in another building, it feels too gimicky. I wouldnt ming Cas and light cav being trainable from Kreposts though.

3. 20s is too much. You get easily 200s once in castle age (loom, 2ba, ####### wheelbarrow, maa, 2 blacksmith upgrades, bowsaw, Hplow, LS), and it continues with basic strategies like skirm+knight combo. And it may get dangerous with Tower rush strategies. it would be fine if the +20s (or maybe +20f instead) was restricted to blacksmiths techs only.

4. Fine. I wouldnt mind tropping off at kreposts either. But for towers, it is probably something pros want to avoid. You either tower your stone for +125s - 65w and some defense you may or may not need. Or you tower rush and save 100w. So situationally good and psychologically strong I suppose.

[AbuzzJam4677680]

@SMUM15236

Here are some of my ideas to make them appealing -

1. Siege Bonus : Food discount on SW techs come too late. They need something in Castle Age. Back in Age of Kings (1999), Scorpions used to be benefitted from Fletching, Bodkin arrow and Bracer. This will be a perfect bonus for them because they have a food discount on blacksmith techs too. Siege Engineers may need to be removed to balance though.
2. Cav Archer Bonus : CA just naturally goes with Bulgarians Cavalry army. Even in Ivaylo campaign, if you start with an army, you always have some CA. I’ll propose a complete unique and interesting bonus - “CA can be trained from Stable”. The surprise element will definitely attract pros.

I have proposed heavy scorpions in castle age before. Or we can give heavy cavalry archer available in castle age and make the upgrade cheaper?

[UpmostRook9474]

• Blacksmith and Siege Workshop technologies cost -50% food.
→ Blacksmith and Siege Workshop technologies cost -50%.

• Receive the Ring Archer Armor.

• The Siege Engineers can be researched in the Castle Age and also cost cheaper.

[SMUM15236]

@Zelley00

Do they ? In the first final of RBW qualofications, there was questions when the pick was used in game. And the performance was not stellar either.

I didn’t check qualifiers. They were used a bit frequently in previous RBW tournaments. And I went with that.

@Zelley00

Well it is not “one” reason

Yeah, sure. But easily “main” reason imo.

@Zelley00

I did not see recent high level Slav performances using xbows

Easily the closest civ to compare with so many similarities. Slavs is carried by their top tier eco bonus. Since Bulgarians don’t and most likely won’t have that, I think a better pierce damage dealing unit should be the way.

@Zelley00

I would say the problem is more that the civ is not good enough at what it is supposed to be good at (infantry, cavalry, tech switches).

Very good analysis.

@Zelley00

We could have konniks buffed to a level where you can only face then with camels / pikes / melee UUs, which the Bulgarian player would answer with LS (if nit against Teutonic knights).

Not possible due to the nature of the game. Konniks to LS is too food heavy.

@Zelley00

We could have the blacksmith upgrades being so cheap (ex. no food cost) that Bulgarians army is always properly upgraded.

Feels too much. I’d rather ask buff the discount to gold as well.

@Zelley00

As much as people complaim that between Slavs and Bulgarians, one often feels as a weaker version of the other

Same architecture, language, Stable+SW tech tree. And bonuses are also on same area - Free militia line upgrade vs free militia line techs, Detinets vs Krepost, cheaper siege vs cheaper siege upgrades with same tech tree.

@Zelley00

they still have a distinct flavor (especially CA vs booming + monks), so I do not see why it would hurt to make Bulgarians food discount match Slav farming over a head to head game, so that both civs have equivalent firepower in a skirm+knights skirmish until mid imperial age.

Yeah, surely they have difference. But why not CA? Skirms cost food and slow you down if you go for Knight+Skirms. Blacksmith techs not costing food might make that easy but essentially will make all feudal blacksmith techs free. I’m not sure about that.

@Zelley00

9 range castle age scorpions sounds way too strong

To be honest, I didn’t put much time on that. I thought it is just 1 more than Khmer locked behind some techs, so it will be fine.

@Zelley00

This would need a complete redesign of the unit.

I was talking about just new Bulgarians bonus. Reworking a unit just for 1 civ is definitely a bad thing.

@Zelley00

20s is too much. You get easily 200s once in castle age (loom, 2ba, ####### wheelbarrow, maa, 2 blacksmith upgrades, bowsaw, Hplow, LS), and it continues with basic strategies like skirm+knight combo. And it may get dangerous with Tower rush strategies. it would be fine if the +20s (or maybe +20f instead) was restricted to blacksmiths techs only.

Right. I think 10 or 15 should be balanced. It was originally posted by someone else (Forgot the name). I argued the same thing there.

@Zelley00

Fine. I wouldnt mind tropping off at kreposts either. But for towers, it is probably something pros want to avoid. You either tower your stone for +125s - 65w and some defense you may or may not need. Or you tower rush and save 100w. So situationally good and psychologically strong I suppose.

Last line! And that’s why I ask that. Pros like these psychological war.

@AbuzzJam4677680

I have proposed heavy scorpions in castle age before. Or we can give heavy cavalry archer available in castle age and make the upgrade cheaper?

Both feels too late to compensate Xbow. Conqs come out right after Castle Age. And very very good in number. Both CA and scorpion need mass numbers to do their best. Extra attack+range on scorpion will reduce the critical number of scorpion significantly.

@UpmostRook9474

• Blacksmith and Siege Workshop technologies cost -50% food.
→ Blacksmith and Siege Workshop technologies cost -50%.

I don’t mind. But I’m very positive that won’t cut to S tier tournaments.

@UpmostRook9474

Receive the Ring Archer Armor.

OP in trash battle.

@UpmostRook9474

The Siege Engineers can be researched in the Castle Age and also cost cheaper.

Sounds good. But won’t be too late as well? University+SE is not cheap for them to afford.

[TungstenBoar]

Yeah if anything I think the food discount on blacksmith techs should be higher

[floydroid772]

If the swordsmen line was good then bulgarians would be awesome.

[Martinurello]

Another thing that could be solved with a good militia-line buff…

Besided that. What if bulgarians would have early access to CA? Like gurjara’s Camel scout.

[FurtherLime7936]

At this point just give them Barracks and Siege Workshops -75 wood cost as a bonus.

Let the civ to perform very early drushes to offset how slow they are on most maps, as well help adding Infantry to protect their Cavalry, cheaper Siege Workshop is good for both offensive and defensive situations, especially in the mid-game where they are at their weakest.

Dismounted Konniks need +10 HP for both Standard and Elite and reduce their ROF to 2.0 (is insane how slow they attack).

[TungstenBoar]

I think thats a very short term bonus

I feel like the biggest problem with the civ is the stayong power it has, thats why I want them to have much cheaper techs in castle age

Also not a fan of keep making Bulgarians more alike Slavs with more siege bonuses

[AbuzzJam4677680]

@SMUM15236

Both feels too late to compensate Xbow. Conqs come out right after Castle Age. And very very good in number. Both CA and scorpion need mass numbers to do their best. Extra attack+range on scorpion will reduce the critical number of scorpion significantly.

Then you may give it a new UU then. A CA UU that deal 7 base dmg and become a swordsman after death like Konnik.

[UpmostRook9474]

@SMUM15236

Sounds good. But won’t be too late as well? University+SE is not cheap for them to afford.

As it brings +1 range to Mangonels in the Castle Age absolutely it cannot be so cheap.

As long as they cannot receive the Ring Archer Armor, here is an other idea: the Siege units or/and Cavalry Archers have +2 pierce armor (or +1/+2 in the Castle/Imperial Age). This way they can counter archers better.

[SMUM15236]

@Martinurello

Besided that. What if bulgarians would have early access to CA? Like gurjara’s Camel scout.

Without eco, you can’t afford it. Also the training time needs to be higher which is already very huge for Castle Age CA.

@FurtherLime7936

At this point just give them Barracks and Siege Workshops -75 wood cost as a bonus.

Let the civ to perform very early drushes to offset how slow they are on most maps, as well help adding Infantry to protect their Cavalry, cheaper Siege Workshop is good for both offensive and defensive situations, especially in the mid-game where they are at their weakest.

Won’t that make them more similar to Slavs? Why not a CA bonus?

@FurtherLime7936

Dismounted Konniks need +10 HP for both Standard and Elite and reduce their ROF to 2.0 (is insane how slow they attack).

The attack speed buff is not necessary. Their attack is already very high to offset the slow fire rate.

@AbuzzJam4677680

Then you may give it a new UU then. A CA UU that deal 7 base dmg and become a swordsman after death like Konnik.

2 units with same gimmick for same civ? I think we can do better.

@UpmostRook9474

As it brings +1 range to Mangonels in the Castle Age absolutely it cannot be so cheap.

Will it attract pros though? I see this as slower Celts and Celts are already very unpopular in tournaments.

[AbuzzJam4677680]

@SMUM15236

@AbuzzJam4677680

I have proposed heavy scorpions in castle age before. Or we can give heavy cavalry archer available in castle age and make the upgrade cheaper?

Both feels too late to compensate Xbow. Conqs come out right after Castle Age. And very very good in number. Both CA and scorpion need mass numbers to do their best. Extra attack+range on scorpion will reduce the critical number of scorpion significantly.

Or pair it with more changes.

Heavy Scorpion upgrade should not cost higher than onager upgrade and should have some changes.

Heavy Scorpion +1 range; upgrade cost reduced to 800F/500W. Pair with Bulgarian discount= 400F/500W

Generic tech replacing arson: militia-line receive -20 dmg from mangonel-line.

Bulgarians have heavy scorpion upgrade available in castle age and scorpion-line -60% wood.

The cost reduction in scorpion should help them mass scorpion earlier. But this should be still less powerful than Romans.

[UpmostRook9474]

@SMUM15236

@UpmostRook9474

As it brings +1 range to Mangonels in the Castle Age absolutely it cannot be so cheap.

Will it attract pros though? I see this as slower Celts and Celts are already very unpopular in tournaments.

Or this one

@UpmostRook9474

As long as they cannot receive the Ring Archer Armor, here is an other idea: the Siege units or/and Cavalry Archers have +2 pierce armor (or +1/+2 in the Castle/Imperial Age). This way they can counter archers better.

I feel this can attract pros more.

[PatentedTen656]

Since Dismounted Konniks don’t benefit from Stirrups, should they benefit from Bagains?
How about giving them 150/300 Food for building Kreposts and Castles?

[Buonaventura]

Maybe a free Konnik per Krepost could be interesting.

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I think the real problem of Bulgarians is that they suffer a lot against Pikes/Archers. Any bonus for Skirmishers would be nice.

[GermanAttorney8]

They actually are fine vs archers/pikes (because of cheaper attack upgrade for skirms)

I think adding a CA option would be attractive, but I am not sure if theres too many CA civs already

Something like UT affects CAs

[FurtherLime7936]

@SMUM15236

Won’t that make them more similar to Slavs? Why not a CA bonus?

They are already very similar to Slavs, and is better respect current identity as Cavalry/Infantry civ with Siege Weapon Support, not to spawn another civ that goes Cav Archers+Hussars.

@SMUM15236

The attack speed buff is not necessary. Their attack is already very high to offset the slow fire rate.

How is very high when is essentially same damage output as Champion if it was 2,0? reason why people won’t use Konniks is because how bad the dismounted Konnik is.

[SMUM15236]

@UpmostRook9474

I feel this can attract pros more.

Yeah, probably. But extra PA on siege is kinda useless. Changes only mangonel vs CA in Castle Age. Is helpful in Imperial though. Extra PA of CA might work for pros. But I think CA from stable will attract more.

@Buonaventura

Any bonus for Skirmishers would be nice.

Skirmisihers +1/+2 attack in Castle/Imperial was in my mind. But they will be almost broken in trash war. Need to remove “Stirrups” effect on Hussar and maybe even remove Hussar.

@GermanAttorney8

(because of cheaper attack upgrade for skirms)

And armors. Very important for skirmishers.

@FurtherLime7936

They are already very similar to Slavs, and is better respect current identity as Cavalry/Infantry civ with Siege Weapon Support, not to spawn another civ that goes Cav Archers+Hussars.

Fair. Maybe need to remove Hussar then.

@FurtherLime7936

How is very high when is essentially same damage output as Champion if it was 2,0?

In castle age it is similar to LS. And I think +10 HP is just enough.

@FurtherLime7936

reason why people won’t use Konniks is because how bad the dismounted Konnik is.

Blame HP and speed then. Infantry is and forever will be bad for these 2 stats, not attack.