Burgandians buff ideas

  1. Civ bonus of gunpowder units +25% attack changed to Imperial Age UT

  2. Civilization bonus added: Farms/farmers slowly generate gold when working

  3. Castle Age UT: Flemish Militia unlocked at TC.

Stats in Imperial Age are same but get reduced by 25% during Castle Age. Flemish Militia in Imperial Age get a -25% training time after researching Conscription (since they should be affected).

So basically:
Castle Age FM - 56 HP - 9 attack melee, vs cavalry; 6 attack vs ships, camels and elephants
Imperial Age FM - 75 HP - 12 attack melee, vs cavalry; 9 attack vs ships, camels and elephants

Both techs are unlocked by proper age ups and not duplicate age ups. This means that game starting in Imperial Age already has Flemish revolution researched. Games starting in Post Imperial have both UTs researched.

Not a huge economy bonus, but something is better than nothing. Flemish Revolution not disabling all economy is also good.



+20 characters…

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Tech discount for all eco techs 10-20%. Encourages their earlier eco techs and considering civ like Chinese gets more vills and a tech discount on all techs it’d be fine


Theyneed something to help their eco, otherwise tech 1 age earlier is literally useless. Either free loom (but start with - 50) which is a bad idea, but goes with the theme of the civ (cause loom is the only dark age tech, so it will be researched one age earlier, and thus, already done in dark age) or some extra resources at the begging of the game. Or some reduction for eco techs.

Hunt lasting longer is an option. Delaying farms may allow them to research eco tech earlier

Too close to Mongols bonus.

Flemish Militia are a perfect hybrid of Champs and Halbs, they would absolutely demolish every other Castle Age unit.

In Castle Age, TC work time is important too. Moreover, I explicitly said a stats reduction should be there. I meant HP reduction from 75 to 60 and attack (attack bonuses too) reduced by 25%.

Literally the latest Goth bonus

Just replace gunpowder bonus with (slightly) cheaper eco techs. That would make it viable to actually make more use of the fact that the techs are available earlier. HC are so bad that the current bonus doesn’t make them a viable unit, and bombard cannons are good at what they do without any bonus anyway, so might as well repurpose that “bonus slot” to something useful.

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The bonus damage is not something useless. Hand Cannoneers are. So I wanted to keep it. Since most games end in castle or early Imperial, the bonus is not beinh used, so better make it a cheap UT. Moreover, why would a cavalry civ prioritise Chemistry?

However, the bonus has clear value with Cannon Galleons, which is not a replaceable unit.

Training Flemish Militia would prevent you from training villagers. When you know they are going for FM you could wall and boom. As long as you had a few archers around your walls you should be able to stop them. But say you go for 2-3 TC boom and they’re wasting time making militia instead of vills then very quickly your eco would shoot past theirs.

I think you’re missing the point of Burgundians with those change ideas.
The idea was to make a civ whose unique techs are do-or-die. That is, the timing of the techs matter as they have a cost on top of the benefit.

These changes mean the techs can be researched at any time and there’s nothing too unique about the civ anymore.

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I would take balance over the uniqueness. Moreover Burgandians have early Cavaliers and Coustilliers for uniqueness.

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The same distance that brittons and tatars bonuses have 11

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It’s fine as an UT but not as a free bonus from the start of the game.

Sounds like a dumb powerspike. The civ already can get paladins out the fastest they don’t need that on top.

Even huskarls have trouble reaching them, add to that any decent meatshield ----> all infantry dies

BBC don’t require a castle, which is pretty good for when you don’t have a castle but need long range siege. But if you makes this a UT locked behind a castle, it’s just a weird worse siege engineers + worse janissaries bundle. Might as well just make trebs and play Turks/Spanish next time.

To buff your defenses, skirmishers, and unlock gunpowder.

I’m all for uniqueness but if it’s just bad then maybe finding something else would (that can be just as unique) be appropriate.

I was thinking about something similar lately. They need a little extra something to enhance their early game.

Something like a 25% eco techs reduction but only if you buy them one age earlier could work too. I don’t know yet, could be akward, but it would give them a real use to their eco bonus which is finally kinda underwhelming because of inflation.

It could allow you to tech a bit earlier like intended, and save res to get an extra scout for example.

Well IMHO it’s not a great design

I don’t know if it’s bad or not… I like it as a concept. Maybe Burgundians need a buff of sort to make them more viable in a wide range of maps.

It could simply be a case where the two UTs are not properly employed by lower skilled players while they’re actually potent when used by skillful players. It’s not unheard of that different civs may be less balanced across different skill levels.

Also, keep in mind that it takes time for the community to develop strategies around a unique game mechanism. For instance, Feitorias were unheard of as a viable strategy and were treated as a meme ever since FE was released. Yet, recently, players have managed to find niche use cases for them.

Huskarls is pretty much the only use-case where making HC makes sense. But many civs that have access to HC have much better options to kill Huskarls, (Japanese have Samurai, Teutons have TK, Byzantines have Cataphracts, Franks can counter them better with Throwing Axemen, etc.) so even then it’s a situational unit. Civs that have Arbalest AND HC will never make HC unless facing Huskarl, because Arbalest is better (since you can start massing archers way earlier). Civs like Spanish and Portuguese should also never make HC, due to having a UU that does the same, but better.

In the general case, HC are too expensive to maintain in open battles. They are fragile, so it’s pretty reasonable for the opponent to just throw skirms at them and tire you out economically if you stick to HC.

The only strong use-case I can think of HC is just fast imp in closed maps like Arena, where your HC will most likely fight Castle Age units, so that makes the HC reasonably good in comparison.

huskarls, eagles, malian infantry…


Just give them bloodlines and reomove their cavalier upgrade and give them 50% discount on wheelbarrow with 100% faster researching time

“Just” redesign the civ! :joy:

100% faster and 50% cheaper wheel and handcart? Or just wheel?

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