Byzantine Are HOT Trash... Respectfully

Oh, me too. I love aggressive gameplay, however we see the same trend with Chinese this patch. The map pool does not cater well to civs that frequently don’t play an aggressive feudal gameplay.

off topic but china 1 is dead! I predicted this outcome b/c china 2 capitalizes on all the deficiencies of China 1 with very little drawback AND has a straightforward EZZZZZZZ approach HANDS DOWN…

Byzantines, rather than get reworked, could always get improved like having some religious technologies added to it and making a technology that can be named “Aristocracy”.

The devs pay attention to the balance of the game and if a civ is weak, they will buff it. So, no need to stress.

Enjoy the game

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China 1 is dead because it’s boring not because it’s bad.

China 1 is a lot better late game with siege and Handcannoner. And is better at defending also.

Zhu xi is just so much more fun to play because you don’t need 50 minutes to be ahead.

I don’t want to play china because i don’t want my game to last 1 hour.

You literally just described why China 1 is BAD??? And exactly how china 2 has CAPITALIZE on all the gripe the forum has posted for YEARSSSSS converted into china 2 goodness; meanwhile China 1…

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Do you think china 1 would be more fun and balanced if it was same but with access to unique units without dynasty?

I think it doesn’t make sense anyway as you keep access to the units when you leave the dynasty. There is no need to lock them.

I think discussions about China should be in another thread so that more people would see them, and it won’t fill this thread with stuff not related to the Byzantines.

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I’ve got most of the new maps on veto for the very reasons you listed as positives lol.

When I play team games I want it to be team based. Not two 2v2’s going on either end of the map.

Plus so many of the maps seem to just spawn everyone in a loose circle with loads of comparatively ‘dead’ map around the edges that are the hunting grounds of cavalry blobs.

Unless I’m playing as France lol.

Took a while to form my opinion on them. But, yea, they are bad. Mercenaries are too clunky and slow to make. RNG involved with them (some maps don’t even have trade outposts) is just an awful idea.

The cistern in particular is awful too. They are too costly, and don’t offer many exciting functions. They end up being extremely vulnerable, and at their cost, that makes them sour. Unfortunately, they are a requirement for you to get your civ bonus, so it just feels like Byzantines are perpetually stretching themselves too thin.

Cistern abilities are also boring. It’s basically a worse, incremental Imperial Official. They should’ve had access to some mechanics that were unique to Byzantines. Akritoi is not worthy of being a cistern ability; the thing could’ve been on all the time and it wouldn’t change Byzantines as they are now. It simply gets outscaled too quickly to matter.

Cataphract also costs too much, and the trample does not make up for the loss of charge. Varangians are also too gold heavy. All in all, Byzantines feels like they are struggling to simply perform on par with generic civs doing nothing special.

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Based on my extensive testing with them i can honestly say that there are virtually no situations where anyone bothers with the trading post for mercenaries unless maybe its right behind the TC

The civ is definitely overtuned. The ideal mud game involves careful micro of cataphracts. Seems the intent is to combine some healing elements from cistern of the first hill with a monk or two from the winery to keep then alive and cycle charging.

The problem with byzantine is the APM requirement to make them work. If some ex starcraft player with 325 APM practiced exclusively with byzantine it would be a balanced civ, perhaps even SLIGHTLY op.

But take that same high APM player and put him on any other civ and the outcome will be about the same.

So the tradeoff of playing byz is that if youve got an incling to spend more APM on actions then maybe its more fun?

i think is more they have more thing to work the more apm you have inlike other civ which leads to advantage bcuz you can do more things as you have more options unlike other civs which lead to a powercreep

I wont say i came full circle but i have pulled back on a lot of my original harsh criticism.

I still think:

  1. Cistern should be cheaper
  2. Cistern of the First Hill needs to be stronger
  3. Merc need to be able to train 1 at a time as an option(this way you get more merc per 6-8 berry bush batch); OR give the batch a discount and training time discount.
  4. something should be done about neutral market merc

Agreed. RNG hits Byzantine far too hard, also is a problem with having to expand with expensive cisterns. Aquaducts probably should build quicker as well, takes too long to get a long wall out.

The mercenary house as a whole feels a bit mechanically odd. It functionally is essentially just another production building, yet it kind of is inactive for most of the game. Like, these contracts could’ve just fit into any of the existing production buildings (archery range, barracks and stables)–but, instead we have a fourth production building that is mostly idle. It is odd.

I kind of would’ve liked to see the Cistern give some kind of unique benefit to Byzantines. It is too similar to Imperial Officials, and could benefit from activated stances akin to the Temple of the Sun. Maybe you can toggle to heal, increase movement speed, increase building speed, damage, anything that isn’t just an Imperial Official. Like I mentioned above, the Akritoi thing is hardly even a bonus, and gets outscaled too quick.

Feels too lazy, I’ll be honest. The cisterns offer too little for how much design space they take; yes, I know that the eco bonus they grant is good, but this doesn’t change how you play. You should be motivated to put down a cistern in a location, not dread it thinking it feels vulnerable. At least, that is how I see this design.

At least giving it more mechanical toggles would make you want to micro the cisterns more. Currently, switching from quick teching to quick production is extremely mundane and uninteresting.

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This!!! If they allowed the mercenary house to double as barracks? Or range? Then all that idle time could be replaced with standard unit que early in the game. And the mercenary house SHOULD be available to build in dark age to better facilitate timings and neutral market usuage.

Currently you build the merc houses (150w) 30s build THEN train a contract 20s (or faster given cistern buffs) THEN start the que for your first batch. That all just takes too long for 2 to 5 units. Alas if you did NOT go winery landmark and saved your berries you get the SINGULAR use of the house for that first batch an won’t get another use until you get out on the map and farm your next berry batch. TONS of dead time in-between.

Even though I still suck at this game; I’m convinced more and more that I play and WATCH other byz players having SUCCESS EARLY! it involves EITHER; quickly expanding to berries around the map to sustain merc supplementing OR ultra turtle TC cistern boom and come out alive late game after a scrappy in base shit-show. ( i prefer the former playstyle).

This is why I’m convinced IFF Byz get a buff (and not a nerf??) it will likely be minimal and not something huge.

Perhaps make it so that if you link the neutral trade post to your cistern network via an aqueduct it will give the same effect.

Not a perfect fix but it would allow players to utilise their existing cistern networks build speed boost and production buildings. Rather than having to build mercenary houses and a cistern by the neutral market just to access two units.

The neutral market merc concept has been vetted thoroughly in the AOE 3 DE rendition (IMO); and that verdict was to allow the special units to be have unique perks to cost/train time/abilities and/or be able to build those special units in base via an native embrassy.

Right now the GREAT merc options available are often immobile which somewhat negates their unlocking early.

The market concept doesn’t feel right in its current iteration. Getting access to Royal Knight is infinitely better than using Keshiks for instance, so it does feel very inconsistent and imbalanced.

okay, maybe relic will be apprehensive to making broad stroke on this civ especially given the sheer number of civs tweaks that are needed in hopes of a better balance. how about this then?

fix all bugs and change only these 2 things:
grant Byz a mill buff that gives a 33% oil from berries ONLY, no research need, it works just like the other berry civ mill auras. This will allow the first batch of berries in base to always be able to afford 2 batches of mercenaries. This will greatly increase the efficiency of the early merc house production building. Byz will still have to venture out onto the map to produce steadily beyond the 2 batches; so it doesn’t reward turtling, especially since it only works on berries!
This buff would also multiple with the Grand Winery buff (1.333 x 1.6 * 50% innate for a total of 1.06 oil per 1 food of berries; that 1500+ oil from your in base berry bushes! NOW you can afford a 3rd batch of any contracted merc)

NEXT
Cistern of the First Hill needs to automatically grant level 5 cistern buff and starts with 10 flash on build up. The landmark is already stale and doesn’t scale annnyyyywhere near the Horn landmark; so at least frontload the benefit to give it some momentum.