# Byzantine Balance Suggestion **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [May 31, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149 "2020-05-31T18:30:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:41am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/62 "2020-06-02T04:41:20Z")
Give Cataphracts extra pierce armor and a small cost reduction in gold even if it means increasing food cost by x2 however much gold cost is reduced. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/63 "2020-06-02T04:43:49Z")
that low pierce armor is their for a reason. without it, cataphracts have no clear weakness. ---
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/64 "2020-06-02T04:47:53Z")
Arrows will still demolish them, a slight buff perhaps +1 or 2 to anti ranged arrow fire to increase the survivability a small amount similar to how the boyar recieved a speed reduction and a pierce armor boost even tho they’re meant for physical fights. It would be nice if the cataphract could withstand 40-60 arbalest shots or at least near there. Even palladins get demolished by arrows. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/65 "2020-06-02T04:55:40Z")
> [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > Arrows will still demolish them which is okay considering the unit literally resists 12/16 bonus damage, which cuts halb bonus damage down by half, and cuts Heavy Camel bonus damage down to a measly 2. and yeah, halbs are still doing 16 extra damage a hit, but Cataphracts literally do 32 damage per swing to them, before armor, and not factoring in trample. so yeah. Cataphracts need to have some sort of weakness. Boyar don’t resist bonus damage though. > [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > It would be nice if the cataphract could withstand 40-60 arbalest shots or at least near there so what do you want to give up so that your unit that already resists its normal counters, attacks faster then any cavalry in the game, and has trample damage, can resist archers better too? ---
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/66 "2020-06-02T05:03:09Z")
The cost to get them up and running is already high enough. If I were to choose a nerf- make them the same speed as the Slavs’ Boyar ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:04am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/67 "2020-06-02T05:04:35Z")
yes, and that’s why i’m in favor of reducing the food cost of the elite upgrade by about 400 food. to help make them more affordable. and before you say that isn’t much. they already save over 300 food on going to imp. that means they are already +700 food. but the fact is that giving them 5 melee armor, 6 pierce armor (with upgrades) and 16 bonus damage resistance, makes it hard as heck to take the unit down cost effectively. and zero logical reason to make them slower. the reason boyar can logically be slow is because they wear a ton of armor. ---
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:10am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/68 "2020-06-02T05:10:12Z")
Rand Al’thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon May all three have the luck of the dark one, but I do say sir, arrows will still slice through them like butter, it’ll only increase their odds of survival running away from arrow fire rather than by any large margin within the fight ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:14am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/69 "2020-06-02T05:14:11Z")
> [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > May all three have the luck of the dark one, but I do say sir, arrows will still slice through them like butter, it’ll only increase their odds of survival running away from arrow fire rather than by any large margin within the fight yeah and that is the problem. they literally have no weaknesses if you increase their pierce armor. btw, good to see a fellow WoT fan. ---
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:17am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/70 "2020-06-02T05:17:57Z")
If anything I’d be up for a gold cost reduction, even if it means more food cost. It takes too much resources tbh, especially gold. Love those books ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/71 "2020-06-02T05:31:58Z")
to be fair, the byzantines don’t need much, most people recognize that they do need something. most people think a small reduction in food cost on elite upgade, but 1 pierce armor isn’t a bad alternative. i just think it might give them way too much resistance for a unit that already resists its normal counters. There is literally zero reason to make pikes or Camels against Cataphracts. yeah the pikes do decent damage, but they get MAULED by the 14 damage + 18 bonus damage + trample damage. its not even pretty. ---
**Author:** ![ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/reigeoctavius/32/53923_2.png) [@ReigeOctavius](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ReigeOctavius)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/72 "2020-06-02T05:39:41Z")
I like the byzantines as an ally for my Teutonic Healing Fortress formation, but their weakness to arrows for their cataphracts always keeps me on edge as to whether or not they’re top of the list for me- I would love to have The 50% healing bonus to the 29 Teutonic Knight, 21 hand canoneer, 10 monk square formation(stand ground) elsewise- and let them play run around the fortress whenever they need heals or to kill charging halbs- perhaps adding in the slavs’ boyar and the goths’ huskarl for good measure alongside the regular teuton support formations of 20 tks, 20-30 pallies and 9 bombard canons- I just wish the cataphracts were either affordable or had better survivability against arrows ---
**Author:** ![JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jojo9942/32/50595_2.png) [@JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JoJo9942)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/73 "2020-06-02T05:56:29Z")
> [@DoctBaghi](#): > > GC takes 22s, and 20s (catas) is still less than a lot of other UU like WW, OG, EA, BE, janissarys, conqs, mangudais, mamelukes, WE, CA. GC is a ranged unit that don’t need reinforcements as often once massed. Catas have too long TT for a castle melee UU. Melee UUs need more reinforcements > [@SouMexican](#): > > indian camel, etc Catas beat imp camel 1v1 and en masse ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/74 "2020-06-02T06:02:01Z")
> [@JoJo9942](#): > > Catas beat imp camel 1v1 and en masse that 16 resistance doing work. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:03am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/75 "2020-06-02T06:03:51Z")
> [@JoJo9942](#): > > GC is a ranged unit that don’t need reinforcements as often once massed. Catas have too long TT for a castle melee UU. Melee UUs need more reinforcements what about reducing the training time to 18/16? ---
**Author:** ![JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jojo9942/32/50595_2.png) [@JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JoJo9942)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:06am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/76 "2020-06-02T06:06:17Z")
not saying the TT needs a buff, just pointing DoctBaghi is comparing it to wrong units ---
**Author:** ![JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jonoli12/32/50441_2.png) [@JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JonOli12)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:23am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/77 "2020-06-02T06:23:42Z")
> [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > Rand Al’thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon Your sorcery will not avail you here, Ais’Sedai! ---
**Author:** ![Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/bzhydack/32/50401_2.png) [@Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Bzhydack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/78 "2020-06-02T08:29:34Z")
> [@MatCauthon3](#): > > yeah and that is the problem. they literally have no weaknesses if you increase their pierce armor. Now FU Cata has 5PA, and can take 30 FU Arb shots. FU Cavalier can take 35 shots, Byz Cavalier - 30 shots. If we add 1PA, will have 6PA, and will take 38 FU Arb shots. For comparison: Byz Pala 54, FU Pala 60, Frank Pala 64. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/79 "2020-06-02T08:48:11Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > +5 hidden damage is what logistic gives and thats all. +6 on top of 16 attacks of the paladins. > [@SouMexican](#): > > Oh yeah you would fight camel vs camel if you are in pocket position, you need to understand the decision making, pierce armor is for raidings and vs archers not vs melee. Why would I ever use camels for raiding, only Indians have to raid with camels, otherwise they are only a counter unit, and the bizz are the most cost-effective counter. > [@SouMexican](#): > > it is only 5 hidden damage not enough to win in 1x1, only good in numbers if you manage to surround units It also mean that less of your cataprhacts can fight more of the enemy units thank to trample. > [@SouMexican](#): > > Yeah you might be able to create 6 more camels but when trading 20 camels without bloodlines vs bloodline camels or archers those extra 6 camels you can produce would be nothing if you already lost 20, the same happens if you multiply it x100, the resources are not infinite, in order to outnumber your enemy you need more stables, so there is no point to compare, their camels are bad and worse than almost all the other camel civs, 25% discount is not \>20Hp and +2 attack. You lose, who care, you stop the raids, kill some of the enemy units and badly injured other and saved resources while do that, instead your enemy has payed the full price. You have successfully defend your base while also prepared yourself for the long run. > [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > Arrows will still demolish them, a slight buff perhaps +1 or 2 to anti ranged arrow fire to increase the survivability a small amount Bizz already have the paladins line when they are against an archer civ, so there is no reason to buff the anti-archer armor of cataprhacts. At the start of the game you have to decide whith which unit you’ll go, cataprhacts or paladins, depending on your decision you can win or lose, by making the cataprhacts more similar to the paladins, you remove this decision, and so you buff the civ by a lot. > [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > If I were to choose a nerf- make them the same speed as the Slavs’ Boyar But the boyars are a different unit, they don’t have an anti-infantry attack and armor, not trample, so you can still counter them with pikes and camels. > [@ReigeOctavius](#): > > I do say sir, arrows will still slice through them like butter Bizzantines have cheaper ESkirms, onager, paladins and siege rams to use vs archers, why they should buff cataprhacts vs them too? > [@JoJo9942](#): > > GC is a ranged unit that don’t need reinforcements as often once massed. Yeah except that by the time you got a castle up and you start training them you enemy will already have more knights that the GC you need to counter them, and he keep up the production with stables, so it can triple you production at least, but here we are getting off topic. > [@JoJo9942](#): > > not saying the TT needs a buff, just pointing DoctBaghi is comparing it to wrong units I wasn’t comparing, I just listed the UU with a longer TT. ---
**Author:** ![JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jojo9942/32/50595_2.png) [@JoJo9942](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JoJo9942)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/80 "2020-06-02T09:06:29Z")
> [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Why would I ever use camels for raiding, only Indians have to raid with camels, otherwise they are only a counter unit, and the bizz are the most cost-effective counter. not to mention Ethiopian camels are just trash vs paladin+arb combo > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Bizzantines have cheaper ESkirms, onager, paladins and siege rams to use vs archers, why they should buff cataprhacts vs them too? Too fragile for their high costs, If Leitis are considered glass cannon despite being tankier against non-halb/camel combo, catas feel far worse and power crept. Not to mention Leitis have significantly lower upgrade costs and gold cost and are powerful against everything > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Yeah except that by the time you got a castle up and you start training them you enemy will already have more knights that the GC you need to counter them, and he keep up the production with stables, so it can triple you production at least, but here we are getting off topic. Well its not like pikemen are that worse, and Italians have FU monks. If anything they should nerf chu ko nu creation time which is atrocious compared to their damage and unit cost ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149/81 "2020-06-02T09:13:17Z")
> [@JoJo9942](#): > > Too fragile for their high costs Yes but they can simply avoit fights that they don’t want being a cavalry unit, and then support them with other units like ES or siege. I mean, SR, ES and catas is a push with little to none weaknesses. > [@JoJo9942](#): > > Well its not like pikemen are that worse, and Italians have FU monks. If anything they should nerf chu ko nu creation time which is atrocious compared to their damage and unit cost Yes, I’m not saying that italians are completely defenseless, but if you want to use their UU for the only thing that they can do (which is counter cavalry, otherwise there is no point on choosing GC over arbs) having a TT that long discourage anyone to use them. If I have to use pikes I would be better of with standard xbows than GC. [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantine-balance-suggestion/84149.md?page=5)