You’re falcs also need protection it’s not like either side doesn’t have other units. The point I made was based on a straight fight between culvs/falcs and fixed guns and it shows that fixed gun barely beats 2 falcs. You also engage the fixed gun when you choose to do so, the fixed gun can’t force a fight with your falcs.
2 Likes
That’s the point, some posts maybe sound like one have more accuracy than anyone else while anybody including myself can have inaccurate balance points, I make my balance suggestions very carefully so should everyone should do, especially if their elo is further than competitive level since when there is no competition, balance becomes much less matter overall as the potential biased opinions can have direct effect on the balance, scenario editor isn’t where the actual games are drawn at all, there are a lot of other metrics such as positioning, placement of your building, walling and so much more, at the end if you keep insist with your opinion, the only thing I can offer is play vs my malta and I can show how these points are not right at all. Your falcs require 3 shots to be taken down so it’s like quite bad to make artillery against malta, it’s basics of the balance making artillery against malta never works, malta has the best anti artillery options and malta bows kill hand cav from range, unless it’s a treaty game skimirshers aren’t working against malta either.
1 Like
As you mentioned competitiveness is important so playing someone 400 elo below would show nothing. I’ve seen plenty of high level games including yours. I think I remember you playing kynesie as malta vs japan and you didn’t do well with malta in that game, xbow certainly wasn’t beating cav and this was before latest patch with cav changes vs light infantry.
If you ship 2 falcs they almost take down a fixed gun by themselves, malta don’t have a culv shipment so if they make culvs to counter your falcs you too can make culvs. You can also just go industrial and make 2 mortars which even culvs won’t be in range of to deal with and prevent them destroying fixed guns.
1 Like
Again, drawing conclusion based on a game where japan had free 0.7 exp trickle entire game on a rather fun based map indochina which had no trading posts and such things,it’s not a right approach to draw balance conclusion in a game where japan player starts with almost a free trading post with the tavern, so that japan player got shipments much more than he would normally get.
I’m not judging your loss, whether a 0.7xp made the difference or not I didn’t see any of this incredibly op malta is the point I’m getting at. I didn’t see any fight where I thought damn that xbow or that fixed gun is op and this with malta in the hands of you the number 1 ranked player, if you can’t abuse it then who can?
Hakkapelits for example were broken af everyone could see that, xbow has since been nerfed 40% in siege damage, entire eco nerfed 5% and xp penalty of 2%. I think they’re more than substantial nerfs that personally I think is too much especially the wignacourt nerf again. XP and xbow siege nerfs perhaps warranted. I certainly don’t think people should be asking for more nerfs on top of all that, it was probably the most nerfed civ other than brit/china.
2 Likes
1 Like
First I wish to say nerfs do not have to exist in a vacuum. I would not be surprised if Malta received a lategame buff to their eco (since I hear they are weak in treaty) or a tweak to sentinels to be more pop efficient in the mid game or some other buff.
8 shipments seems obtainable in fortress. If you do a build like 3 vills → German tongue → wignacourt → 700c → Hospitality, then you only would need 3 shipments to obtain 3 shot culvs. It takes a while for culvs to enter the field so there is probably only a 1-2 minute window where Malta has 2 shot culvs on the field in fortress.
There are other civs that lack a decent age 3 artillery shipment like Dutch, Germany, Hausa, Haudenosaunee amongst others. It does not justify having a 3 shot culv for those civs. Malta still has access to falconets (that win the falc war because of the +2% hp bonus) so stationary artillery is not the only option.
Since the best ranged counter to culverins is culverins, it seems unfair to me that a civ can have a culverin with effectively 50% more hp in culv wars.
The shipment is only worth 700 res but I still see people using it to protect fixed guns. They build one with the hero and use the shipment to set up a second fixed gun that covers the first one and then neither fixed gun can be attacked safely with standard units so it forces your opponent to make culvs. Its value is protecting the fixed gun the hero makes quickly before your opponents push hits or before it can do serious damage.
When Malta has sent 6 home city shipments a fixed gun has 2475 hp which is enough to survive long enough to do enough damage to a culverin to kill it if you only attack a fixed gun with 2 culvs. That is why many people like making 3 since it is the sure way to counter it without losing a culv.
I don’t know if you included the 2% hp boost in your tests but for every card that would be another 45 hp on top of that.
If your opponent walls around the base of it or has a second fixed gun protecting it you can’t rush in with units very effectively.
That’s why people make 3 culvs. But having to invest 1750 resources for an artillery foundry and 3 culverins to counter a 700 resource unit seems high. Also if your opponent scouts you made 3 culvs they can just sell the fixed gun and now you’ve just invested 1750 resources to counter nothing currently on the field.
My personal take is it should be able to hold falconet + infantry pushes. It should not be able to beat two culvs in age 3. If Malta does not have culvs to protect it they should lose it to two culvs in age 3. If it did not benefit from the 2% hp from the cards I think it would be this way. There would still be ways to tech into it such as extensive fortifications (though I doubt many people would use that card). Maybe if it didn’t have the hp scaling its base hp could be buffed by 50 so that the advanced arsenal artillery hp tech would make it able to kill a culv if only 2 culvs attack it in fortress. If the unit became too weak in treaty then it could maybe have a buff to the age 5 upgrade.
3 Likes
A well thought out post.
They may well do, I never touch treaty but I’ve heard they’re terrible probably due to wignacourt only effecting natural res, only 1 factory and lot’s of units that cost 2 pop. You’re best unit also costs wood and you have 1 factory which isn’t ideal. I’d like to see the age 4 card instead of buffing stats and cost just reduce their population.
It certainly is obtainable but it’s also possible to counter for that reason, don’t let malta play late game where they tend to be strongest. Malta is quite weak to just a standard FF especially if they’ve invested in settler wagons as they usually do. You can quite easily take out malta before they get 8 cards sent, even before they have time to make a single culv. Even if they get them you can still use mortars either via the age 3 card or going age 4 which have enough range to take out fixed guns and be pulled back to safety from enemy culvs.
We’re never going to get everything equal though there are always strengths and weaknesses to each civ, dutch have a higher than normal coin gather rate, banks, 2 factories, best goon in the game.
Germans got free uhlans with each shipment, very strong mercenary shipments, settler wagon shipments (probably the best settler type shipments in the game) and again 2 factories.
Haud has a very strong rush/water, best skirm/goon combo and best artillery in the game albeit locked to age 4.
Hausa is the only 1 I don’t really understand, ethiopia gets its mortar so why don’t hausa get 2 falcs. They could do with buffs in general though imo as all of their decent age 3 shipments to counter falcs also cost 1k res.
The shipment is still used because you need the gun up asap to defend a 2 falc push, waiting for the explorer to build it takes to long usually.
Fair enough reason but even losing a culv is a decent trade if you take out the fixed gun. Alternatively there’s mortars or trade monopoly or just out boom while malta sits in base.
It can’t beat 2 culvs in age 3 though, unless malta also invests in culvs they will lose the fixed gun to 2 culvs, usually with both culvs still alive and always at least 1 and swapping 1 culv for a fixed gun is a good trade resource wise.
We’ve discussed the strengths of the fixed gun but it also has it’s weaknesses the main 1 being it’s completely immobile and you can’t force a fight vs 2 falcs with a fixed gun. It might be great defensively but it is useless in attacking the opponents base. A lot of the time it’s coverage is also limited so attacking from a different angle you can destroy a lot of infrastructure and contain the maltese player in his base and starved of natural res and wignacourt only effects natural res. It also costs pop and you have no way of knowing where an opponent will attack or when so you might make 2 fixed guns covering each other on your tc but then you can’t expand across the map and each fixed gun you build is 7 pop just sitting there, when it gets later in the game it’s actually quite an issue and can seriously limit army size especially if you use fire throwers or 1 of the other 2 pop units because a lot of fixed guns are needed to cover every angle of possible attack.
1 Like
If by statistics you mean the Sunbros’ statistics, hold your horses : we are still collecting data and cannot possibly draw valid conclusions based on the current amount of games in the current patch. Any that would hold would essentially be pure luck at that point. This is coming from a person working with the data.
5 Likes
Thank you
Even if you take away the 3 shot culvs Malta still has various strengths such as
- cheap barracks
- shadowteching order units (you need to make 80 hussars for the extra res to amount the res cost of the vet and guard upgrades)
- trip to Jerusalem being a good value shipment
- hospitality being a 600 res shipment + fast age if used for two unit upgrades
- age 2 commandries with more hp than age 4 outposts that can transport vills safely across the map
- fixed guns to counter falc pushes
The civ has other strengths. I’m not sure why 3 shot culvs needs to be one of them because of the lack of a 2 falc shipment.
It may be a good value resource wise but if Malta has a second fixed gun you would need to train a culv to replace it anyways so it would be a bad trade for tempo as you will have to wait for the reinforcement. At that point you may have well just trained 3 culvs to begin with.
I personally think the fixed gun is very much comparable to a fort. It has significantly less hp but it has 9 more range and does siege damage to negate the skirms rr. It also seems to be perfectly tuned to kill 3 infantry units with every volley while the fort does not. It’s 400 res cheaper and and builds 120 seconds faster. It seems very difficult to get a fort up with the hero but the fixed gun is a lot more viable imo. As you mention you can’t use it for offence (unless your opponent has a fb or forward gathering vills) but it is very solid for an immovable defensive structure.
If the fixed gun no longer has use in the position it is set up then it should be sold and the pop space will be free.
This is something I probably need to do more. Though some maps it seems hard where there are many choke points.
You make some good points but I suppose so do other civs. Russian blockhouse is a hybrid barracks/tower/house, chinese barracks/african war camp save you 200 wood each by combining a stable and barracks.
Perhaps I’m tired but if a hussar is 200 res how does it add up to 80 hussars worth? each vet tech would be 2 hussars so that’s 4 hussar and each guard tech would be 1200 res or 6 hussar worth. So like 16 hussar, or are you counting every possible order unit from the tongue cards?
Yeah I suppose it pretty much is a fort other than the fact you can’t hit units that are at close range.
Yeah I forget this a lot but even so sometimes you’ll have your base at starting tc and a forward position both with fixed guns that’s when it gets more of an issue. You can of course sell the fixed guns at base but they could end up walking around your forward base and right into your undefended starting tc. Still I suppose other civs don’t even have a fixed gun lol.
Yeah it’s very map dependent, but if it does go late game they’ll more than likely be spread quite a way out from the starting tc with mills/estates etc, usually a good portion of the base is out of fixed gun range due to their high pop you can’t really spam them everywhere.
Revnak has 2334, if u has 1900 you should have a chance against the tier “F” Malta.
1 Like
Again, you are still doing same conclusion with ignoring the fact and drawing conclusion on a causal based map where japan player starts with free trading post allowed him to ship more cards than usual which is never the case in standard games at all, and in competitive level, 0.7 xp start is directly game changing since you get your new shipments faster entire game for free.
Malta is extremely broken and needs to be reworked to get a balanced game, I have said the same about italy last patch and we have seen same approach resulting italy buffs when it actually wasn’t the case. 2% penalty is not a right change because malta isn’t a balance issue because of the xp curve, it’s because of how malta bows don’t work in unit counter system and how malta bows kill anything existing. full upgraded and carded guard hussars musks can’t beat age 3 carded malta bows and pikes, fixed guns trade much more than anything else for it’s cost and requires double of it’s investment to deal with, that’s how much of a balance concern malta is, fire throwers with rockets are even more broken with free guard goons.
1 Like
I don’t think I worded that very well. I meant that the extra 10% cost of the hussar (20 res) would take 80 hussars trained to make up the 1600 res cost for the vet and guard upgrade. To be clear I am not complaining about the order unit system just saying that it can be one of the civ’s strength (at least in 1v1)
Ah I thought number 1 was like 2100 my mistake.
Ah ok I get it, yeah that’s true so I suppose it’s good value. Other than regular huss/dragoons I don’t really like the tongue cards only lancers have some use the others feel quite bad cards in 1v1 for their cost.
I’m not drawing any conclusion based on that it was just a game I remember watching recently where you used malta and if anything they looked weak. I’ve seen plenty of other high level players stream and play malta and I’m yet to see a game where I think wow that’s broken.
This I feel is just exaggeration at this point. Hakkapellits were extremely broken, old sweden svea lifeguards were extremely broken. Malta is far from that, if the xbow were too good with steel bolts then that has now been nerfed 40%, the entire eco has been nerfed 5% which is also huge. Perhaps you need to play more malta on current patch.
3 Likes
Ah that’s why he is only playing italy. 
2 Likes
The 29,950 players not in the ‘top 50’ have to take priority because that is where the MONEY for the game comes from. No money = no devs = no game. What kind of fool would make something that 50 people want to play versus 29,950? If a pro player quits but 1000 non-pros subsequently buy the game… this is basic logic. As someone quoted elsewhere, if a pro is really a pro, he can adapt to anything and just switch strategies to whatever is now most effective (when he is desperate to win of course, one would hope that the other times he plays it is for fun only). If he fails to adapt, then he loses rank and someone else takes his spot. There will ALWAYS be a ‘top 50’ until there are less than 50 players playing the game.
6 Likes
It certainly seems as though it’s geared to the top players
Brits got a big nerf despite being very well balanced in the low and mid players brackets of the sun bro’s spreadsheet. They had good win rates in the top bracket.
Swedes the opposite. High win rates at low and mid levels with somewhat lesser results at the top. They got a minimal nerf.
This is actually a complex topic. I made a thread revently, and it seems the community is very divided on the topic who to balance the civs around.
Many people also enjoy the game knowing the pro games are enjoyable and a high diversity of civs and strats. Many people also like to hear about the meta from top level players and streamers
This is true, but again, not that simple. Not sure how Foggierwizard sees it (even though I agree he seems pretty biased), but there is also a difference between “only trying to win” and “trying to win while making tournaments an enjoyable experience for viewers and players”. So it is not necessarily a “please dont nerf my civ” kind of request.
A pro (again, not necessarily FoggierWizard) can say in forum “beaware, if these changes occur, pros wont pick this civ anymore”, and the community/devs can decide whether they mind or not. It seems from the sunbros stats that a lot of people play British. Do they mind not seeing the civ anymore in tournament ? Do the others mind ? Up to each of us to decide.
I personally dont mind specifically not seeing the British anymore in tournaments. If the tournaments become only Italy mirrors and Italy vs China/Sweden matchups, I will definitely mind a lot.
Anyways Iam always interested to hear what top players feel about the balance.
1 Like
Brits got nerfed cause of the outcry on the forums, nothing to do with high rate players.
1 Like