Camel tweaking

So im a firm believer in diversifying the meta away from the dominant knights and xbows. So naturally im expecting the conservatives to contest this…

As part of the idea of improving the usefulness of camels (and thus buffing civs that heavily rely on their existence) i thought of a possible minor tweak.

Pikes bonus damage vs camels reduced from 18 to 16. With balanced tech pikes will still kill camels at the same rate.

Currently pikes do only 2 less effective damage compared to knights ( due to MA). Which results in large swings with tech deficits.

Results in a number of issues (with attack = arm upgrades) camels vs a knight pike mix die to exactly 5 hits from a pike + 1 from a knight. The minor change will up this by 1.

A pike with a cumulative +2 extra attack (over MA) kills a camel as fast as a knight (eg Burmese pikes)

The biggest issue with camels is how quickly they become useless the moment the opponent mixes in anything except cav with their knights. Of course i believe there should be larger changes implemented like +1 damage to camels base attack or further reductions in bonus dmg vs camels. But at least this is a minor tweak in the interim and might satisfy conservatives.

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Seems fair.
But may cause issues with Heavy Camel + Cavalier compositions, since Cavaliers are already strong enough that they can sometimes take fights against Pikes.

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Possible but imo incredibly unlikely as the heavy camels will already be wasted the moment there’s pikes in the opposing composition. As they’re doing 7dmg at a 2sec rof. Compared to the cavaliers at 12 for 1.8. I don’t think the heavy camels surviving slightly longer in that kind of composition is going to break the game.

Camels would never be released in their current state in any modern game. They are far too niche and thus imba.

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I do not know, if they can take even another hit from Pikes, then the HCamels themslves may not be oppressive, but the Cavaliers might.

I would be open to experiment with it.

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I just think this change won’t have a noticeable impact. yeah it takes pikes 1 more strike to kill them but camels aren’t good against anything not cavalry, so the impact of this bonus is that they get off one more attack against whatever they are fighting. big woop.

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I don’t think camels need to be better against pikes, I think I would rather give them 1 pierce armor and let them have a little bit more tankiness against archers and especially cav archers.

What I want to avoid the most however is camels becoming a “knight which can kill knights” type of unit. They should still remain a counter unit, just with some degree of flexibility.

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Camels are just a counter units, even Camels civs like (Saracens/Berbers/Indians) don’t use them that much except against cav civs if the other side mass his cavs. For me i think Saracens at least should get a buff for their camels, because they are the only camel civ that actually have nothing for their camels except an imperial age UT and i think the Mameluke should have +1/+1P armor

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except a camel unique unit…

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Which is it the most expensive UU in the game and no one use it, this is why i said at least Saracens need a buff of their UU/Camels in general

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except the point was your continual overlooking of anything you don’t want to acknowledge.
you said persians don’t get anything for their cavalry. yet they get a bonus that lets them kill archers faster then any other knight.
you claim saracens don’t get anything as a camel civ except an imp age ut, but ignore that they get a camel unique unit.

just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

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No, that is the War Elephant, which funny enough, is hard countered by the Mameluke.

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No bro, not becasue i don’t like it, but because it is somehow don’t make that big difference and looks like a meh bonus. About Saracrne they really need a buff for their Camels/UU

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hey guys we can kill archers faster then any other civ in the game, which means we take less damage from them, but that someone isn’t a big difference.
lancesters law disagrees with you.

UU i agree, reducing the gold cost alone is a big buff. the rest? they already get +30 HP to their camels. that’s a solid bonus, and Saracens don’t really need any more buffs outside of adjusting their UU.

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Well yeah buffing the UU will be good, but when i said they don’t have nothing for their Camels comparing with Berbers who have 15%/20% discount castle/imp and Indians (+4 damage vs buildings/Tanky camels)

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they also have better archers then either of those civs, they have a very abusable market bonus, and of course just because you want to ignore means nothing. that +30 health is a big bonus.

they aren’t designed around camels providing their offense, like Indians are.

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Yeah but they are Camel civ, and look at the Berbers for example, they have 15%/20% discount+UT for their Camels+Camel UU+the first knight upgrade in imp and their UU are viable.
About Indians, i think in general this civ need a buff anyway regardelss what camels they have

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Saracens are an Archer civ, with Siege Archers that will burn down your TC in early Castle Age.
The Camels and Mamelukes are there so they can dunk on the Archer counters: Rams, and Cavalry.

You should see how hard Saracens dunks on Turks, Burmese or Persians, it is not even a contest.
They even easily beat Franks.

The only think that works well against Saracens, is decent ESkirms, and even then they will just spam their own FU ESkirms.

Arbs + Mamelukes completely destroys any place not guarded by a Castle.
You cannot use Rams or Paladins against them, because the Mamelukes tear both of those to pieces. Hussars, Eagles and Huskarls get demolished aswell, and the Arbs will slowly just take out every production building in the vicinity.

So yes, Saracens have great defensive Camels for their Crossbow/Arbalest push.

Saracens Camels win out against Berbers Camels, cost-effectively, with Zealotry.

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Thry also have a laughable eco bonus, that camel unique tech provides q whole 15 hp over the course of a minute, and their archers are inferior to saracen archers.

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Omf always great to have a thread hijacked :roll_eyes: this isn’t about the effing mameluke

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Big thumbs up buddy. Forum is absolutely responding as it always does.

Exaggerate my argument to twist it into absurdity well done bruv!!

Since you require pictures to understand this.

A camel that is slightly harder for a pike to kill, while doing still just over half the dps of a knight. Does NOT turn it into a knight which kills knights ffs.

If anything buffing PA turns it more into a knight. As it makes a proportionally much larger change

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