Funnily enough for the tech tree cavalry archers count as cavalry. The Frank bonus says “cavalry units +20% HP” and their CA have +20% HP, while the Berber, Teuton and Indian bonuses apply to “stable units” and thus don’t affect CA.
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Well they do what counter units are supposed to do: defend and force the opponent to transition away from the unit they counter, getting value and momentum from that. The difference between camels and other counter units (skirms, pikes) is that camels are able to force engagement against the unit they counter.
So technically is right that camels lose their utility if the opponent transitions out of cavalry, but if played correctely, the camel player should be in the better position to transition into something else due to the ability to harass and trade with cavalry with less resource investment, resources that can be put into eco/upgrade for other units.
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throwing in a couple pikes isnt a transition out of cav.
no they dont. not with the current pathing. its incredibly easy to avoid camels.
is that they cost a ton of resources to upgrade, as well as a horde of not only limited gold, but a larger chunk of food which delays aging.
lets say im attacking with mangonels. and i have camels “guarding” the mangos. the opponent pushes back with knights and a couple pikes. the camels will get rekt, even more so if we consider the cost of the camels (with their tech) plus any offensive units. as opposed to any other counter unit that doesnt use up gold which can be spent on offensive units.
lool this is exactly my point… they do not have the ability to harass anything except heavy cav.
you guys are just repeating things you have read somewhere instead of actually considering how other (more diverse) games work. where either counter units(pikes) are much more effective vs the unit they counter, or they are better generalists than the camel is(kamayuks, camel archer). (this is the point where you exagerate my POV to make it sound like i want camels to be knights)
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Camel Tweaking? No thanks.
Camel Twerking? Now we are talking!
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your mangonels aren’t capable of killing pikes? seems like bad play on your part.
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Well pikeman are already an investment, due to upgrade cost and eventual blacksmith techs. And just as knight player can throw some pikeman, camel player can mix something like scorps or monks to help in the fight.
Well heavy cav is what they are actually supposed to counter so it’s ok. If pathfinding is the problem, than pathfinding should be fixed, not balance.
Well I actually play this game. If I want to play some more diverse game, I’ll do, I don’t get why a 21 year old game with well established and successful mechanics should copycat something else.
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Other, more diverse games fail to stay relevant for over 20 years.
AoE2, Pokemon and Doom all teach the same lesson: Simplicity is eternal value.
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like what games? SC and SC2? the pro scenes of those games are literally dieing as we speak.
WC3? Blizzard just killed that game.
so what RTS out there has stood the test of time like AoE2 has and is not only thriving, but EXPANDING 20 years later?
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Don’t forget the benefits of the Camel Rider. They are cheaper to train, cheaper to upgrade, move faster, train faster, and are mostly similar to knights except that they deal bonus damage against them – not the other way around. Obviously Camel Riders need to be weak in other ways to balance this. So their base attack and armor isn’t as good as that of the knight-line. Otherwise nobody would make Knights and we would all train Camel Riders all the time.
Camels were really weak in The Conquerors because they were in the ship armor class. With all the buffs since then, I think they are fine now. Mostly an underestimated unit to be honest. Though I wouldn’t mind a small buff. Perhaps a slightly better rate of fire, or +1 line of sight or something like that.
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+1 Pierce armor so they better survive team games and can actually seee use there.
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Not a complete transition, but since spears, the pikeman upgrade and infantry armour upgrades aren’t free (surprising I know) you do prevent them from creating more cav.
Because knights don’t use the very same pathing?
So you tell me you use a mobile unit in a situation where you don’t need mobility? Then the problem isn’t with camels.
Well they are better than pikes and skirms offensively. Idle time is enough sometimes.
Your POV sounds more like you can afford mango+camel but for some mysterious reason you can’t afford xbows when the enemy can afford pikes.
Well I think it’s what make Indian special so it should be kept for them. Unless they decide to get all the money a DLC with 15 new Indian civs would bring them and change the civ 11
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Indians only have +1 PA in castle age.
Heavy Camel could gain +1 PA without treading on Indians’ toes. (ofc assuming the Indians change isn’t reversed.)
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If this happen then the Indian bonus would have to be changed to +1 rather than +1,+2, and people would get triggered about Indian in 1v1 yet again. Or make the bonus different for camels and light cav and then people would complain it’s ugly
better wait for dat DLC
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No, Indian camel play would have to be nerfed some other way.
They’d already lose 1 armour compared with earlier, which puts Imp camel right between Farimba heavy camel and saracen heavy camel
(compare
- +3 attack
- +2 attack, +20 hp, -1 MA
- +30 hp
)
They just need an camel eco nerf, in such a way that their non-camel play gets buffed, eg
- vill discount 10/15/20/25% -> flat 15% vill discount in all ages
- discount all unit upgrades except the Imp camel upgrade by some percentage
Or an archer & cav archer buff, or an actual useful UU
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The EA is actually a great UU. It muders it’s own counters.
Maybe the slight buff for their dark age would be enough?
better or worse than Magudai? Rattans? Cataphracts?
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No. Their Dark Age is good enough with the cheap villagers.
Feudal is good as well
Castle Age is decent vs Knight civs only
Early and Mid Imperial is pure trash
Late Imperial is decent.
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Much better than Cataphracts, and beat Rattans.
Not many UUs can compare to the Mangudai, because Mongols was built around the Mangudai, and if you take it from them, then Mongols becomes a bad civ.
Indians was not built around the Elephant Archer.
No I wanted to mean that IF the Indian bonus was changed to a flat 15% in all ages instead of the staggered bonus then another buff wouldn’t be needed because well, it’s already a dark age buff to compensate the later nerf.