Can We Please Fix Instances Where Counters Do Not Work

We all love this game and half the reason that it is a good game, is that counters are an important part of the game. The 2 most egregious instances of this that have recently ruined my playing experience are Giant Grenadiers (Kill Skirms) and Mamalukes (Kill Musks).

  1. Giant Grenadiers (Sweden)

image

  1. Mamalukes

Mameluke

Questions:

  1. It is an unlikely situation and so it does not matter. To this, I say that just because you rush your opponent and only play 1v1s does not mean that there are not other people who play longer forms of the game and if you want the player base to grow then everyone’s experience should improve.

  2. Mercenaries are supposed to be strong. To this I say, indeed but counters should not break down and trades should be costly when fighting against your counter.

  3. Just make cannons. I don’t agree that there should be units in the game that beat and trade well with 4 unit types. GG beat LI, HI, HC and LC. M beat LI, Musks, HC, LC.

  4. You play poorly. On both occasions, my team (2v2) had more resources, more spent on units and a higher elo but still lost to one enemy player spamming these units.

Edit:

  1. I did some testing and it seems like the Mams do well because they soak up all the ranged damage from the enemy units. Your own ranged units can fire at the enemy but they can’t fire back. So yes melee units can kill Mams but if there is a composition of units half cav (Mams) half ranged then the ranged units will rack up high Kills while the enemy can touch them.

  2. I did a test with 20 Musk and 5 Mams VS 40 Musk. In a test like this, the 40 musks should win since they counter half the enemy population. Unfortunately, the 20 musks and 5 Mams win because all 40 of the enemy Musks are stuck shooting the mams while the 20 musks shoot and kill the 40 musks. I tried setting the musks to hand attack and the outcome becomes better but still a loss. The same test with pop equivalent Huss goes as expected with the 40 musks winning.

  3. This instance with Mams being too effective happens when Otto players stack buffs in age V, in age 4 for example with no buffs the Mams are fine. The same is true for the Giant Granadies but just with Sweden. I have also discovered an issue with the Dutch merc stat where they can get instant Royal Horsemen in age v.

  4. Spies are very effective against Mams but train too slowly since you need to make 3 to 4 times the amount of Mams.

1 Like

grenadiers are countered first and foremost by artillery. skirmishers need to use their range to beat them.

Mamelukes definitely don’t break the counter system, they’re just overall super tanky.

You can argue for Giant Grenadiers being an issue, but personally I find artillery and skirms are able to deal with them cost effectively enough.

The biggest issue of counter breaking units have got to be all the new light cavalry with ridiculously high melee attack.

The initial rework of Hakkapeliti was essentially uncounterable and they’re still strong after nerfs. Chevauleger and Royal Horsemen have the same issues and could use some nerfs as well. It’s ridiculous that their melee damage output is more than double their ranged attack.

I don’t want to see my Chevaulegers get trashed, but some adjustment to their melee damage does seem in order, you can erase skirms and artillery way to easily just by going into melee.

good thing every civ has artillery

5 Likes

We have 2 solutions;
Easy solution: give them negative multipliers against Light Infantry and Heavy Infantry, tuning the appropriate rate for multipliers through a series of patches
Messy Solution: nerfing their stats (risk to make them unused or to recalculate balances among units all over again)

What a great plan, all I have to do is make cannons and skirms. Oh but if I make cannons then who will stay and protect them while the skirms are running away and shooting?

If kiting was all that was needed to kill Heavy Infantry then skirms would not need a multiplier to kill musketeers. It also doesn’t help when they can just march into your base and 1 shot your military buildings.

The game has basic traditions like Light Infantry kill Heavy Infantry.

If you look at that screenshot then it’s easy to see that dragoons don’t work against them. Cav that have 1000hp are tough to deal with these have 2200hp, my goodness that is more HP that 4 musketeers and then they have 40% range resist. You can make musketeers and Dragoons and but you will be making bad trades.

They make any composition of troops op because when they run to the enemy, they are the closest units and every ranged unit will fire at them. The range resist is 40% which means to ranged units they essentially have 3000hp. This means all the ranged damage of your enemy are being soaked up by the Mamalukes while your ranged units can fire happily.

o problema meu amigo e que os granadeiros matam mais skimishs, do que e possível os skimish matar os granadeiros acho que você nunca ficou nessa situação outro problema e justamente o dano em área que muito alto para essas unidades os skimish morrem facil facil

exactly, like when I’m playing Inca and i make… ummmmm… i… make… well…ah, shit.

1 Like

you’re right, mams are not op. like last night when I made caroleans and they just, will killed the mams isnt the right way to but it. the mix of mams and infantry just killed me because it turns out having 40% range resist and 2300 hp means that caroleans just dont do anything really, and my goons just do a hole load of nothing as well.

Emm Âży si pruebo contrarrestar mamelucos y granaderos gigantes con espĂ­as?

Spies have low hit points, so they can’t withstand attacks from mercenaries. Their ranged charge abilities have long cooldowns.

Look what I found on Reddit. Why even…

Hojoom!

e) South Africans can ship the Wanderlust card, an INF card that gives +5% hit points over and over. This guy accumulated 14 Wanderlusts.

3 Likes

Mamulukes are very strong but are very expensive and pop heavy and should get beaten by equal resources of melee anticav. I haven’t tested if that’s actually the case though.

heavy cavalry trades very well into mamelukes, ranged counters are useless.

that being said, giving mercs that huge lategame upgrade making the op-est merc more op… who could have seen that coming???

1 Like

Mamelukes lose to their counters in melee and can’t actually deal any damage to them from range. They may be OP, but that’s not because they break the counter system.

Chevauleger on the other hand just shred through skirms in melee which does break the counter system.

2 Likes

I just played a game where I made mamelukes and abus and that poor Dutch player couldn’t seem to do anything. at a certain point he just made helbs and ruyters. i had 1400 kills and he hads 600.

Abus counter all that he was making. I don’t see how that makes any point about Mamelukes.

1 Like