Cavalry, camelry and elephant changes

Getting straight to the point in this one.

  1. Let us analyse Leitis and Steppe Lancers first. They have a minor 5G cost difference but quite a major difference on field. The Steppe Lancer is a variation of Light Cavalry whereas the Leitis is a variation of Knight. The speed of the 4 units is 1.45 1.5 1.4 1.35 . So the difference of speed between Scouts and Knights is much narrowed here. In both pierce and melee combat the units are quite different due to the armor. Counting for the melee armor of a unit for the Steppe Lancer, the Leitis has double the damage per shot in addition to attacking much faster. Clearly the 5G difference doesn’t justify this difference.

  2. Next we will add to the above comparison Tarkans and Keshiks, in reference to their cost. The Tarkan is quite a bit useless in Castle Age, and the Keshik is OP in Imperial Age due to its cheap cost. The Keshik is OP, not the Tatar Civilization. Let us state the HP - food cost - gold cost - attack - attack rate - armor of these 4(8) units.

Steppe Lancer - 60 - 70 - 45 - 9 - 2.3 - 0/1
Leitis - 100 - 70 - 50 - 12* - 1.9 - 1/2
Tarkan - 100 - 60 - 60 - 8 - 2.1 - 1/3
Keshik - 110 - 50 - 40 - 9 - 1.9 - 1/2

Elite Steppe Lancer - 80 - 70 - 45 -11 - 2.3 - 0/1
Elite Leitis - 130 - 70 - 50 - 14* - 1.9 - 2/2
Elite Tarkan - 150 - 60 - 60 - 11 - 2.1 - 1/4
Elite Keshik - 140 - 50 - 40 - 11 - 1.9 - 1/3

The Elite Tarkan catches up a bit compared to the Elite Keshik.

Let me propose some changes. As you can see, Cataphracts are not mentioned since they are fine.

  1. Attack nerf - Both versions of Steppe Lancers and the Non-Elite versions of Boyars, Leitis, Konniks (only mounted), Keshiks receive -1 attack.

  2. Attack boost - Elite Battle Elephant +1 attack.

  3. Cost change - Leitis food and gold cost interchanged. They will be still cheaper than the Paladin in both the resources. Steppe Lancer cost reduced by 15 gold. Keshiks cost +10 of both resources.

  4. Battle Elephants trample damage increased to 33%.

  5. Tusk Swords give +2 attack, rather than +3. This means Khmer post imperial Elephants receive no change in attack.

  6. Ballista Elephants - independent of attack distance, projectiles travel to the maximum range. At 0 range, the Ballista Elephant just drops the projectile making it a much weaker form of the Battle Elephant.

  7. Marauders - Tarkans at Stable moved to slot 3 (same as camels).

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So you propose the leitis have a cost of 50 food and 70 gold and 1 less attack to both versions.

For a unit that requires a castle to make, and doesn’t see much use in the castle age.

Oh and back when it was 80 gold it was never made because the paladin had more health, more armor, and was easier to mass.


Talking about Camels is completely different from the above units. So a different post.

The Castle Age camel costs 50% more than the Scout Cavalry and is worse than it in literally every situation except melee cavalry. Camels against Cavalry archers is kind of situational since scouts have 2 pierce armor while camels have attack bonus. The Camel costs a lot of gold for which it is completely useless compared to Scout Cavalry line except for Cavalry. The only positive side in combat is its extra HP. It has 47% to 79% HP advantage over its Scout equivalent accounting for Civilizations with Camel riders (which means Saracen Heavy Camel vs Teuton Scout matchup is excluded. Saracen Camels vs Saracen Hussars like matchups taken).

Proposed changes- Camel Rider units +1 attack, which means 7, 8 or 10 (Imperial Camel) attack. Camel Rider line and Mamelukes +5F and -5G cost. Camel rider line 2/3 of its equivalent spear unit 1 age down when attacking Cavalry, which means +10 attack for Camel Rider and +15 for Heavy Camel.

In a recent change I noticed, if pike units do 10 damage to cavalry, they do 8 (previously it was 5) damage to camels. While it is different slightly for camels. If camels deal 10 damage to cavalry, they do only 5 damage to camels.

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Only the Castle Age, non-elite version. +2 attack compared to the equivalent Knight is kind of too much. The Elite form have the same attack when compared to Paladins.

The camel also trains faster, has more health, and is cheaper to upgrade. The camel is only intended to counter cavalry. If it was supposed to be a more mainline unit it would have a longer training time, higher base damage, and lower bonus damage.

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Considering it requires a castle? How is that too much? It also attacks slower. How often do we see leitis in castle age at the pro level? Hint. Not often. It also has less melee armor. So after your proposal leitis would trade 1 attack for 1 armor on a melee unit (hint armor is most important), attack slower, and it requires a castle to make. I’ll take the knight every time
How often did we see 80 gold leitis? Like never

At 70g each i make paladins in almost every situation. Lithuanians become yet another civ dependent on thd knight paladin instead of its unique unit

Non-elite melee UU are useless most of the time because they are too hard to mass for a unit that tends to die a lot. They are usually only relevant in Imp with many Castles, and in this case you tend to have elite upgrade anyways. Therefore, I see no reason in nerfing so many non-elite versions of units we rarely see. You also buffed Khmer in teamgames for no reason.

A lot of infantry unique units are almost useless bur we didn’t talk about that. Samurai and Woad Raiders have 1 less attack but no one said anything.

What buff? They are nerfed in Castle Age.

Woads are one of the best melee unique units in the game.

In the Imperial Age with the Elite Upgrade. It’s a serious upgrade. Compare the Woads to Leitis, it’s 8 vs 12 attack. The LS vs Knight comparison is a bit even with 9 vs 10 attack. The woads are sort of countered by archers and knights.

and how often do we see Leitis in the castle age? oh wait. never.

the woad is also insanely fast and trains very fast too despite needing a castle, which gives it a huge advantage over the LS that you aren’t taking into account.

… Might be a knight-replacement for Indians
… Might be a paladin-replacement for Saracens, Berbers, and Malians

… Oh wait what… It is?!

Samurai and woads were made like this 20 years ago. If Leitis or Boyars were introduced with 1 less attack, that would have been ok. But there is no reason to specifically nerf them now, since it doesn’t accomplish anything, since these units are not massed until imp (maybe except keshik). It’s a change for the sake of change.

For Indians? sure. (though they still stink vs infantry and archers).
for the Saracens/Berbers/Malians? not even close. they use it to counter cavalry and thats it.
they don’t go making camels against archers or infantry.
but nice try.

but hey, i’m talking to the guy who lied and said i was against buffing water civs,
and who also said that vikings go knights against eagle civs when the overwhelming evidence disagrees with him.
so it doesn’t surprise me that you are making claims like this.