Civilization Idea: Guptas

The Guptas represent the Gupta Empire of late antiquity, being contemporary with the Goths, Huns, and Romans. They are the only Indian civilization to have access to the Battering Ram instead of Armored Elephants, which reflects their historical introduction of siege weapons to the Indian subcontinent. They also have Cavalry Archers instead of Elephant Archers, for the exact same reason.

The Guptas have the Indian architecture set, with a unique Castle based on Kans Quila, and their Wonder is Mahabodhi Temple.

The Guptas are a cavalry and siege civilization, and have quite a few options available, from Battle Elephants to Steppe Lancers to their unique Knight replacement.

What’s important to note is that the Guptas have a special regional unit, the Chariot Archer, shared with the Sinhalese and Dravidians (or Tamils if they got renamed). The other two civs would have a melee Chariot unit as well, but since it shares the same slot as the Knight, which is replaced by a special unique unit for the Guptas, only the Chariot Archer is available to the Guptas. Unlike Elephant Archers, Chariot Archers do not share a slot with Cavalry Archers, so they can coexist with either unit. When I cover the Sinhalese, I will go over the stats for the Chariot, but here is an overview of the Chariot Archer:

  • The Chariot Archer costs 90 wood, 30 gold, and has 75 HP (the Heavy upgrade has 85 HP). It’s about as fast as the Ratha, since both are chariots. While it costs the same total resources as the Ratha, it’s weighted more heavily towards wood, making it more viable in the late game. It has 6 attack and 5 range (7 and 6 for Heavy), so its attack stats are better than the ranged Ratha’s, at the cost of some HP. Its low gold cost makes it more cost effective. It has only 1 melee armor, but 2 pierce armor just like the Ratha. The Chariot Archer has an accuracy of 75%, with the Heavy version having 90% accuracy, so Thumb Ring is less important. The Heavy upgrade costs 800 food and 500 wood.

Now that I’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s get into the civ concept:

Civilization Bonuses

  • Receive +10 population space at the start of each age

Unlike the Goths, who add to the max population limit (the bonus should really be +10% population, with a minimum of +10, but that’s a discussion for another time), this one simply adds population room out of nowhere, and cannot ultimately affect the population cap.

This bonus originally represented India’s large population, but since it didn’t start to skyrocket until long after the Gupta Empire vanished, it instead represents the massive urbanization that occurred during Gupta rule.

  • Mounted archers +1/+1 archer armor in the Castle/Imperial Age

As mentioned before, the Gupta Empire really introduced horse archery to the Indian subcontinent, and used it to great effect. Part of its military success can be attributed to horse archers.

  • Siege weapons move 20% faster

In a similar vein, siege weaponry was a new introduction by the Guptas that made their conquest of India much easier than it otherwise would’ve been.

  • Thumb Ring and Husbandry available one age earlier

The Guptas were masters of archery and cavalry, and they made considerable advances in both areas earlier than many other civilizations, since they existed in the late antiquity period.

  • Team bonus: Monasteries provide +15 population space

This is a reference to one of the later Gupta emperors promoting Buddhism and building a prominent vihara, which is essentially a Buddhist monastery with living quarters and an open floor plan.

Unique Unit 1: Khanda Swordsman

  • This unit is a quick infantry unit, with 65 HP (75 for Elite), 1/2 armor, 12 attack (13 for Elite), and a speed similar to that of the Ghulam. It has a +5 bonus against Monks, and is itself conversion resistant. On top of that, it also provides conversion resistance within 5 tiles to all units other than itself by +1/min, +1/max, the same as its own conversion resistance. It costs 50 food and 50 gold.

  • Given that the Guptas lack Heresy on account of the Battle Elephant, as well as Faith, this unit is very important when it comes to countering Monks. Light Cavalry are also missing to incentivize usage of this unit, and since they don’t hold up as well in battle and also cost more food, it’s a decent trade-off.

  • The Khanda is a double-edged straight sword from India. It was used by Gupta soldiers, but also improved by Prithviraj Chauhaun and used by Rajput warriors to great effect. It also has an important role in Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism as a symbol of wisdom.

Unique Unit 2: Asi Cavalry

  • This is essentially the Knight replacement for the Guptas. It has 1/2 armor and 80 HP (90 HP for Elite), as well as 12 attack (14 for Elite). To make up for its lesser HP than the Knight line, it heals 10% of its base HP for each kill (8 for normal, 9 for Elite). With its high attack, it can easily take out weak units, like archers, and get a similar level of hardiness as the normal Knight line. Since it lacks the final armor upgrade, this healing is the main way that it obtains hardiness.

  • Asi, quite simply, is the Sanskrit word for “sword.” Heavy cavalry wielding swords were an important part of the Gupta army, and in fact made up the main fighting force.

Unique Techs
Sangharama: Monks produced 80% faster

  • Cost: 300 food, 120 gold

  • While the Gupta Monastery isn’t great, most technologies are available, and Monks hold an important role in healing, converting enemy units, and gathering relics. Monk conversions can often swing fights, especially against Knights, but if they go down, they are costly and time-consuming to replace. This technology makes it easier to mass them in a timely fashion.

  • The word sangharama basically refers to a temple or monastery, and is the place where the Sangha, or Buddist monks, live. The same Gupta emperor who built a vihara also built a sangharama at roughly the same site.

Chaturanga: Stable units and Chariot Archers +5 attack vs infantry

  • Cost: 800 food, 500 gold

  • This technology makes mounted units considerably better against infantry, especially Chariot Archers, since they benefit from both Parthian Tactics and this tech, making them great against pikes. However, to counteract this, both sets of units lack the final armor upgrade, making them glass cannons. Still, enemy infantry, except for Halberdiers, will be ineffective against a late-game Gupta army.

  • Chaturanga is an ancient Indian board game often believed to be the ancestor of chess, shogi, and others. The Persians called it shatranj and eventually brought it to Europe, where it became chess. Chaturanga featured essentially the same types of soldiers as the Gupta army, with elephants (or gaja, which became bishops, chariots (or ratha, which became rooks), horses (or asva, which became knights), and infantry (or padati, which became pawns), as well as, of course, the Mantri (minister, which became the queen) and the Raja (king).

Tech Tree

Missing Units: Champion, Eagle line, Elephant Archer, Hand Cannoneer, Light Cavalry, Knight, Camel Rider, Armored Elephant, Bombard Cannon, Demolition Ship, Cannon Galleon.

Missing Techs: Gambesons, Redemption, Heresy, Faith, Theocracy, Plate Mail Armor, Plate Barding Armor, Ring Archer Armor, Fortified Wall, Bombard Tower, Arrowslits, Two-Man Saw, Stone Shaft Mining, Guilds.

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I’m not learned much about them. But isn’t it the name of the empire/dynasty. And Aoe2 civs are not named after empire or dynasty.

Yes, but it could also apply to the people in the empire as well, at least I’m assuming so. There’s not really another name that the Gupta Empire is known by.

Ratha is a chariot and chariot archer already.

Yeah, I know. But this would be two regional units that aren’t as tanky as the Ratha, but would be easier to mass. It would be like the War Elephant vs the Battle Elephant.

The Gupta dynasty is said to had originated from the Bengal region. The majority of their population might have been Hindu, but the emperors and royal families (especially later ones) promoted and encouraged Mahayana Buddhism. Overall, I think they should be closest to the current Bengalis in the game, although the Hindustanis have their emperor as AI leader.

But personally, I would classify them as the latest period of the potential Indian civilization for RoR. The Chinese in AoE2 seem to be thought to have started from the Sui Dynasty (581), while the Japanese in AoE1 seem to have been thought to have ended in 800. On the other hand, the Gupta dynasty ended in 550. So thematically, I don’t think they have to be a new AoE2 civilization.

When the Bengals have both melee chariots and chariot archers, their Ratha lose a lot of meaning regardless of stats.
On the other hand, when the Dravidians get such mobile units, the balance of the entire civilization will be completely affected.

It is very likely to become as useless as those monk UTs before.

Besides being similar to Farimba, I’m personally a little tired of glass cannon units.

Yeah, but they can still switch between the two, which gives them a differentiation. And the melee Ratha has trample damage.

Probably, but I think that’s for the best, as the Dravidians are absolutely awful.

The trample damage is part of the stats I stated. That is, regardless of the stats, Ratha’s identity would be damaged. Ratha was born to work as the equivalent of knights and CAs.

They need to change but maybe not in this form.
Giving them mobile heavy cavalry makes no obvious difference to giving them knights outright, other than thematically.

I’d love to have them in game, maybe coming with hepthalites and gokturks…
Someone who knows better than me told me they could have an ethnic designation but right now I can’t recall the name.
The Gupta empire went from 300 AD circa to 550 (plus later principalities) so it totally fits aoe2 imo, specially with late western Romans who are placed by historians between 284 and 476 AD (640 for the east). I think all the 4th century is aoe2 territory rather than aoe1 because of how units in the latter reflect the bronze, iron and (at best) classical era but not late antiquity at all which is already more dark age looking.

“But in aoe1 there are Yamato!” You can really just rename them to Jomon or Yayoi since not even the campaign is there anymore in Ror. Or do you really want to have Huns, franks, Goths etc again in aoe1 as Yamato’s contemporaries? I’d say let’s leave that for Germans, Gauls, Scythians and other proper ancient civs.
China itself was not unified between 220 and the end of the 6th century and the shift from Parthians to Sassanids in Persia happened at a similar time which is quite convenient overall as a terminus post quem.

That said I feel like the castle age UU could be a bonus instead since it feels more like that but I’m terrible at balancing.
I would be curious to hear campaign ideas for them.

To be honest, I don’t think there is a real correct answer to this question.
The Middle Ages were very European standards of division. When we say that this game is mainly based on the Middle Ages, the standard of the timeline for the non-European civs might have been erratic, and now even the 4th century can be included in the game.

When I say that I think they fit in as part of the RoR and do not have to be in the Aoe2, I am referring to the fact that the fall of Gupta dynasty seems to be academically considered the end of Classical India, and after that is considered the beginning of Early Medieval India.

In addition, the content of the potential RoR Indian civilization will theoretically start from the Indus Valley Civilization or the Vedic period, followed by the 16 kingdoms of Mahajanapadas, and then develop into dynasties with Magadha as the core. When discussing the Magadha dynasties, they usually include the Nanda Empire, Mauryan Empire, Shunga Empire and Gupta Empire. In my imagination, the end of this civilization could be the political fragmentation, urbanization decline and cultural regression in South Asia caused by the decline of the Gupta Kingdom. This seems to me very similar to the beginning of the Dark Ages due to the decline of Rome. What the Hunas did to Gupta was somehow similar to the Germanic barbarians did to Rome. And then, the Indian civilizations in AoE2 begin.

Therefore, incorporating the Gupta dynasty into the RoR would not be “another Yamato” at all, but the Indian civilization including the Guptas in RoR would be like the Shang, which actually represents the period from thousands BC all the way up to about the 6th century.

I reiterate that everyone can have their own opinion.

Seems a bit too expensive for its quality.

I would say make the Thumb Ring half price as well, but don’t make the Husbandry earlier.

The cost of the Thumb Ring is too high to be researched in the Feudal Age, and with a 50% price cut it could be decent. Husbandry only costs 100 food, which is very affordable even in the Feudal Age, while the +10% speed cavalry seems to be broken in the Feudal Age, such as the previous Cuman bonus.

Quite a decent bonus, saves a couple of houses each age. Could be very impactful on Nomad and hybrid maps.

Nice bonus considering you’ve balanced it with the removal of ring archer armor.

Too powerful at the pro level. Even though it might just be compensating the lack of eco bonus, in some maps and settings it will be extremely difficult to get decent mangonel trades against this civ.

Thumb ring won’t be affordable that early for 1v1 and most tg. Husbandry in feudal age could be too powerful. Master of archery and cavalry is fine but it has to be some other bonus.

Neat.

Love this unit, its cost, its ability. Base attack for non-elites should be a bit lower (10 or 11) and bonus damage higher to have the same impact.

Another interesting concept and unit. Very similar to knights but with a different unique ability.

Its situationally broken for some castle drop into early imp builds. In general if a civ historically had some monk benefits it has to be included as a civ bonus and has to be moderate. In this case you can make it something like each monastery boosts monk production by 10% (with a cap) or each relic boosts monk production or something like that.

Too high for chariot archers. Parthian tactics should be removed instead of ring archer armor in that case.

What’s missing here is a bit more about the Asi cavalry unit line. Its cost, unit line upgrades, cost for upgrade, stats for upgraded version(s) etc
Overall draws a little bit from Tatars and Mongols here and there, lacks a good economic bonus for land and strategy kinda seems based on chariot archer, asi cavalry and mangonel usage. Needs some minor tweaks but otherwise very interesting.

They should get Indian Metal Longbowmen as an UU.

How would it be different from Briton Longbowmen, exactly?

The Gupta aren’t really an AoE2 era civ, I used them as a Rome at War civ, which is before the AoE2 era for sure.
https://romeatwar.org/techtree/index.html#Gupta

They are contemporaries of the Romans, Goths, and Huns, so I’d say they fit. They’d also work in RoR too, since there are more existing unit types that the Guptas used than in AoE2. In general, though, I’d say late antiquity belongs more in AoE2 than AoE1, because the actual combat and technology were closer to medieval than ancient.

I don’t think people were referred to as their ruling dynasty name. Anyway, name aside I find your civ very weak. Your only eco bonus before building Monastery is saving 50+50=100 wood. I think you didn’t think much about this civ. TR is extremely expensive even for Castle Age. Even Viking/Burgundians level eco can’t justify a Feudal TR because it is obviously better to go Castle Age and make the best duo techs - Xbow+Bodkin asap. And even if you have Vikings/Burgundians level eco, the best you can do is research TR while aging up. I don’t see any reason to use 300 food on this tech when your archers have only 5 range.

Yeah, I know that. But it is not 100% confirmed.

Yep. I agree. If anything, they should be an Aoe1 civ. But the term “Guptas” is still inappropriate, right? Afaik, Aoe1 civs are not named after empire/dynasty. Maybe “Indians” then? Gupta empire was at least half India unlike Aoe2 timeline where India was splitted into several kingdoms and empire.

That really hurts to hear. There’s a reason I post these concepts here, and it’s for feedback.

I actually didn’t know how expensive Thumb Ring was when I designed the bonus.

Yamato, Shang, and Choson disagree.

Yeah the civ in RoR would not be named Guptas. As I stated, this civ would also cover many contents which earlier than the Guptas.

Therefore, maybe the term Indians is the simple and suitable to be the name of civ indeed.

The term Yamato is also used as the another name of Japan and the Japanese ethnicity, like the term Han also refer to the dynasties and the Chinese people.

Similarly, the term Choson actually means Korea rather than only the dynasties. In Chinese, the Korean people are also called the Choson people.
In fact, the North Korea called themselves Choson as the name of the country in Korean, and on the other hand the South Korea called themselves Hanguk as the name of the country in Korean.

By the way, I pretty want to change the name Shang. I don’t want to see the battles during the Three Kingdoms period would be presented by the Shang Dynasty.

Don’t take it as rude or mean comment. I meant it in friendly way.

There you go.

Okay. I don’t know anything about Aoe1 to be fair.

Keep them posting. Reading fan civ ideas is really fun for me.

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Gurjaras represent the Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty. No?