the in-game history even references that Spain, Portugal, Italy etc were influenced by the goths. It’s also commonly believed that Goths have gunpowder because of these civs widespread use of it.
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Exactly. So Lombards coexisting with Italians is not outrageous. It’s actually pretty reasonable compared to stuff like 3K.
Thing is, to have Lombards be in the game, the existing ‘romans’ would have to be scrapped - because thats what was left of them in italy besides the lombards at the time.
Lombards were a tribe of the Suebians, correct? Perhaps instead of a hyper-specific Lombard civ, we could get Suebians to represent Lombards in the dark age and later Upper Germans like Austrians, Bavarians, etc.
DESIGN CHANGES
- Start with +2 villagers, but with no Town Center; first Town Center built 200% faster (except in Nomad settings) –> Hunters and foragers don’t need drop-off buildings, but work 5% slower
- Villagers +1 attack vs cavalry per age –> Villagers +1 melee armor per age (starting in Feudal Age)
- Team bonus: First Blacksmith free and built 100% faster –> Outposts +5/+5 armor and can garrison 5 villagers
- Shield Wall now gives the swordsman line +5 pierce armor (and only the swordsman line)
- Gairethinx effect changed: Gastaldi and spearmen move 15% faster within 6 tiles of an enemy unit; skirmishers +2 range
- All Borghi no longer train military units faster; Nomadic Borghi can train spearmen in addition to scouts and Arimanni
- Nomadic Borghi no longer train Villagers faster than Town Centers; Settled Borghi train Villagers in 35 seconds instead of 50 seconds
- Settled Borghi can now train Arimanni as well, and Nomadic Borghi can no longer upgrade them to Elite Arimanni
- Lose access to Champion
- Receive access to Arbalester
- Lose access to Thumb Ring
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Since I’ve only just come across this thread, I’d like to add my two cents. I know I’ll sound a bit nitpicky, but we are talking about my country, after all.
- Lombards is the wrong name.
I don’t know how native English speakers got confused, but in Italy we have 2 distinct words. The Longobards (from the Latin “Langobardi”) were the actual medieval Germanic tribe, while the Lombards are the inhabitants of the modern administrative region of Lombardy.
- Not really a conquest?
This point is highly debated. The written tradition of the Longobards (in Latin, by the way) says that they were invited to Italy, and it is impossible to know how true this is. This is because archaeological evidence shows that there was not as much destruction as reported in the propaganda-filled Byzantine chronicles. Furthermore, the Longobards moved to Italy because life was better there; they had no particular intention of looting and then fleeing.
In any case, the king of Constantinople, Justinian, opposed this, and thus began the Longobards-Byzantine wars for control of Italy and the Byzantines were defeated in 750 AD. The Pope, fearing that the Longobards would also subjugate Rome (a city completely different from that of the Empire), called upon Charlemagne, and the rest is history.
- The problem of identity.
Today we know that the Longobards who migrated numbered at most 200-250 thousand. The Italo-Romans numbered at least 3 million in comparison (although they had no desire to fight). After all, we are talking about early Christianity, a long way from the era of the Crusades. We know that many bishops prayed for coexistence between the Italo-Romans and the Longobards.
Furthermore, the concept of nationhood did not exist. If you had asked a farmer or baker what nationality he was, he would have looked at you confused, then told you he was Christian, then told you that since his master boasted of having Longobards origins, he too is a Longobards. The same case for a Roman master. This explains why the Sicilian kings write that they are fighting the Longobards in southern Italy, even though in most cases there is no longer any distinction between the Italo-Romans and the Longobards. It was the nobility who still boasted of having a Longobard or Roman ancestor.
No, the castle you mention is Italian, strictly Italian. Too recent, dating back to 1350. You have to piece together fragments of older castles, even though they have obviously been transformed over the centuries.
Kudos for the correct plural, but the problem is that “Borgo” is the Italianisation of the German word “Burg” (castle), with, among other things, a different meaning. Obviously, they did not speak Italian at that time, so either “Burg” or the Latin “Burgus” is correct. Essentially, in this historical context, the “Burgus” would be a small fortification. It is only since the 10th century that “Burgus”, now “Borgo”, has been used to refer to small fortified villages where farmers live. But the Longobards identity no longer exists; especially in the north, people are beginning to refer to themselves generically as Italians.
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“Borgo” is actually a word directly taken from the Lombard language, which is why I gave it that name. It’s not strictly Italian. I’ll address your other points later.
Over the years English speakers have called the Germanic tribe Lombards, Longobards, Langobards, Longbeards, Lumbardes, Lumberttes, and so on. All of these come from the same Latin root (except arguably Longbeards) so I don’t really see this as native English speakers getting confused – this is just a feature of how language works. As far as I know Lombards is the most commonly used/recognised, so I think @Apocalypso4826 has chosen the most appropriate name for the English version of the game (though evidently not for the Italian translation).
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Take your time, but another point I would like to make, which is related to what you wrote, is dubbing. Why? Because there is no written Langobardic language, and the Longobards themselves adopted Latin very quickly. A clear example is Rotari’s edict, written in Latin: Edictum Rothari - Wikipedia.
So what language should we give them? Either a form of Old West Germanic, or Late Latin, replacing some Latin words with Germanic ones. Like “guerra” from germanic “werra” (war) instead of the latin “bellum”.
That’s a valid point, but even in German they are only called “Langobarden” as far as I know.
Well, English does tend to be more of a mess than other European languages…
that which matters most is if it’s a fun civ to play as or against
Italians, Sicilians, Romans,… we really don’t need yet another Italian civ.
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+arguably byzantines and goths
Everyone’s a critic. I only ask that if you have nothing constructive to say to simply say nothing at all. That goes for anyone.
part of the purpose of this forum is to scrutinize. you don’t get to tell people to shut up just because you don’t like their (perfectly valid) criticism of a 4th (or 6th) Italian civ
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Probably yes but it was used as early as the late 4th century where Vegetius tells us of western emperor Valentinian deploying a huge (and also the last before the barbarians overrun it) building program on the limes in the Germanic provinces. The forts he established there are called Burgi, maybe it was an early Germanization? Not sure but it was a missed opportunity to not give them as a unique building or unique tech (instead of ballistas which better fit antiquity) to Romans. So I did that in my campaign where they’re kreposts where to train foederati.
As for the civ name I’d use Longobards only cause I don’t want people to think they’re an Italian split based in Milan and Lombardy (not only they were Germanic but they weren’t limited to Lombardy). I think most people assume they’re just northern Italians exactly because the name distinction is missing in English though I agree that Lombards sound better, granted we know what we’re talking about.
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Your answers are always interesting. However, yes, the Italian dictionaries I consulted all state:
Burg (German) → Burgus (Latin) → Borgo (Italian).
Although the meaning has changed slightly in the transition to Italian. For those curious:
Since the 10th century, the term has referred to two distinct types of territorial formations: a cluster of houses in the suburbs or in the space between an older circle of walls and a new defence (wall or moat); a rural centre fortified even only by a moat.
From the 12th century onwards, while in Germany the word came to refer to a feudal fortress, in Italy it continued to refer to a fortified village, a group of dwellings belonging to the people, as opposed to the castrum or castellum, the lord’s residence, and distinct from the open villages of the countryside (vicus, locus, villa, terra).
That’s why I said that Burg or Burgus are both good choices (depending on how much you want to mix Late Latin or German). Because before the 10th century, the term Borgo probably did not exist.
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I am simply asking that you keep your criticism constructive. Complaining about a perceived Italian-but-not-actually civ is not constructive.
some things shouldnt be added to the game, so there can’t be any constructive criticism. we need another italian civ, just as much as we need an atlantis civ.
They aren’t Italian. They’re Germanic.