Civilization Idea: Vandals

[Mahazona]

@Apocalypso4826

The Hasding is a light cavalry unit with 75 HP instead of 60, 1 more attack, and 1 more pierce armor, but less speed and no bonus against Monks. Its main gimmick is that it has the ability to instantly kidnap enemy villagers without harming them, trapping them in a sack on the horse’s back. It can then deposit the villagers at the nearest Town Center to convert them. Gender, job, and resources carried are all retained from the kidnapped villager, but any stat changes are not. It still has the option to kill units like normal, which may be preferable, because any kidnapped villagers are instantly freed if the Hasding that captured them is killed.

A good look for this unit.Maybe even a better name.

[RatcicleFan]

I like your civ idea for the most part, but I also think we don’t need a third wonder that is enemy building+loot.

@DukeOfLorraine

Yes, a Byzantine style is also needed. As well as splitting the Eastern European style, maybe making one for Poles + Magyars while switching the Bohemians to Central European to reflect Bohemia being an important part of the HRE, and a Nomadic style for Mongols Huns & Cumans.

I agree with all if not most of these. We also need a set for Incas.

[Apocalypso4826]

I have significantly overhauled this civ.

• Land military units (except siege and Monks) take up -10% population space in Feudal, -15% in Castle, -25% in Imperial Age → Receive 10% of an enemy building’s cost after destroying it

• Demolition Ships are now included in the discount and creation speed bonus for Dromons

• University technologies now cost -50% food (so they are easier to justify in Feudal Age)

• Carthaginian Legacy no longer removes the minimum range of Dromons, but now gives Camel Riders +40 HP as a reference to the Carthaginians of AoE1

• The Hasding is completely different. It is now a high-attack cavalry unit with low HP and defense, making it essentially a mounted Shotel Warrior

• The Wonder is now the Basilica of San Saturnino, built in Vandal Sardinia

• Receive Arson

• Lose Halberdier

• Receive Heresy (Vandals were literal heretics)

• Lose Faith and Block Printing

• Receive Plate Mail Armor and Plate Barding Armor

• Lose Ring Archer Armor and Blast Furnace

Overall, I think it’s a dramatic improvement.

[DynasticPlanet5]

I was told that if Im bumping a civ thread that i was supposed to make the thread from scratch. Be ready yo get lambasted for this. Not by me, mind you, just be prepared!

Case in point: Usac’s Civ Crafting Brainstorms Part 14 - Mossi - #10 by DynasticPlanet5

[Apocalypso4826]

The difference is that your threads that you bump are often up to a year or two years old, while mine here is only a few months old. I typically make a new thread if it’s been more than a year and the changes are significant enough to justify a new post.

[UpmostRook9474]

@Apocalypso4826

Receive 10% of an enemy building’s cost after destroying it

Nice, though I don’t know whether it could include stone or just include wood.

@Apocalypso4826

University technologies now cost -50% food (so they are easier to justify in Feudal Age)

An University costs 200 wood, which is too expensive to be buit in the Feudal Age.
I feel the techs are still too high to be accessed even when they cost -50% food.
I don’t know but maybe no food cost, maybe.
By the way, this bonus looks more like a bonus for a defensive civ rather than for a civ of raiders.

@Apocalypso4826

Carthaginian Legacy no longer removes the minimum range of Dromons, but now gives Camel Riders +40 HP as a reference to the Carthaginians of AoE1

Like the old Saracens, well, not bad.
You push them towards becoming a camel civ. I don’t know if this is historically accurate but it’s interesting and feasible from a game design perspective.

@Apocalypso4826

The Hasding is completely different. It is now a high-attack cavalry unit with low HP and defense, making it essentially a mounted Shotel Warrior

In terms of the role it plays in strategy, it’s probably very close to the Coustillier, just more extreme in stats, with higher damage capabilities and lower survivability.

Perhaps it could be nice to consider more features to make it different from the Coustillier, such as making it only uses 0.5 population, or has a very fast movement speed. But if you think it is already unique enough, this is fine and could work.

@Apocalypso4826

The Wonder is now the Basilica of San Saturnino, built in Vandal Sardinia

Looks great.

@Apocalypso4826

Receive Heresy (Vandals were literal heretics)

My personal interpretation of Heresy (technology) is that people judge the converted unit as a heretic and execute it with religious intolerance. This means that the Vandals with the Heresy technology view the traitors as heretics, not themselves as heretics. It’s just saying. I’m fine with they having Heresy.

@Apocalypso4826

• Receive Plate Mail Armor and Plate Barding Armor
• Lose Ring Archer Armor and Blast Furnace

Overall, I think it’s a dramatic improvement.

Definitely improvements for your Vandals in my opinion. Personally, they became more realistic and feasible in my imagination.

At present, it seems that it is still a civ that might be strong in the Castle age but would inevitably be weak in later games. The free food income would be good, but the requirement for a market made it a late help in the Feudal.

Due to the lack of bonuses for combat and the lack of the Blast Furnace, infantry that you considered to be their focus would not be used primarily. The University bonus would be useful for siege weapons, but not much. I guess people basically would use cavalry units consistently and gradually transition to a combination of camels against cavalry and UUs against archers. However, I can not sure whether the UUs with their low HP can be effective against large numbers of archers in later stages.

On the other hand, Pikemen and Skirmishers who are not fully upgraded would be the weakness of this civ once it is short of gold. Although the UT could allow them to attack buildings to obtain gold, it would need to be researched first and they might not have the chance to attack buildings long enough in time. In some maps that are relatively closed and difficult to get close to enemy buildings, such as the Black Forest, the looting effect would also be more difficult to achieve.

I don’t think the looting effect is a bad idea, I just think they might not have to rely so much on the gold from looting in late games if they weren’t so weak on purpose. It could be nice to have useful Elite Skirmishers, if you allow me to offer advice.

[Apocalypso4826]

@UpmostRook9474

Nice, though I don’t know whether it could include stone or just include wood.

The stone gained from destroying structures is typically quite trivial. Destroying a Castle, for instance, only gets you 65 stone (even less if the opponent is Incas or Franks), not even enough to build a tower.

@UpmostRook9474

An University costs 200 wood, which is too expensive to be buit in the Feudal Age.

True, but including a discount for it would overlap with the Bohemians too much. That’s part of why Chemistry is still in the Imperial Age (albeit at a considerable discount).

@UpmostRook9474

I feel the techs are still too high to be accessed even when they cost -50% food.
I don’t know but maybe no food cost, maybe.

An excellent idea. I’ll have to think about that. FYI, upgrading to Guard Tower only costs 50 food and a bit of wood with this bonus, so that’s quite affordable.

@UpmostRook9474

By the way, this bonus looks more like a bonus for a defensive civ rather than for a civ of raiders.

True, but the Vandals having more of an emphasis on slow pushes, turtling, and the early/midgame would contrast them greatly with the Goths (which is also why I removed the cheaper population units bonus; swarms of units are the Goths’ thing). This is also historically justified, since the Vandals were famous for academic institutions more than the Goths were, despite both having a reputation for being lawless barbarians bringing nothing but destruction. The University bonus helps dispel that misconception.

@UpmostRook9474

Like the old Saracens, well, not bad.
You push them towards becoming a camel civ. I don’t know if this is historically accurate but it’s interesting and feasible from a game design perspective.

I wouldn’t say a late-game tech with no other bonuses aside from resource generation really pushes them into being a camel civ. They’re still missing BF, so quite a bit of damage output is missing. I like the Carthaginians nod, personally.

@UpmostRook9474

In terms of the role it plays in strategy, it’s probably very close to the Coustillier, just more extreme in stats, with higher damage capabilities and lower survivability.

Perhaps it could be nice to consider more features to make it different from the Coustillier, such as making it only uses 0.5 population, or has a very fast movement speed. But if you think it is already unique enough, this is fine and could work.

I’d say the Hasding is closer to the Light Cavalry in stats than the Coustillier is, emphasizing even more its importance in raiding potential. Having played Grand Dukes over the past few days, I can tell you that Coustillier are not as bad in sustained fighting as they seem, because they can just very quickly overwhelm enemy units. The Hasding, by contrast, essentially HAS to hit-and-run, because it will simply die if it doesn’t.

@UpmostRook9474

My personal interpretation of Heresy (technology) is that people judge the converted unit as a heretic and execute it with religious intolerance. This means that the Vandals with the Heresy technology view the traitors as heretics, not themselves as heretics. It’s just saying. I’m fine with they having Heresy.

Oh, I never thought about it that way…

@UpmostRook9474

It could be nice to have useful Elite Skirmishers, if you allow me to offer advice.

I assume the way to achieve that would be to give them RAA, since BF is already enough of a tech tree hole in the Blacksmith.

[UpmostRook9474]

@Apocalypso4826

Destroying a Castle, for instance, only gets you 65 stone (even less if the opponent is Incas or Franks)

Oh, you count discounts of each civs in. So the Briton TC for example would provide very less wood when destroyed. Okay I agree it would be quite trivial, even for the wood maybe. If I can suggest, maybe increase the percentage from 10% to 50% and not count the stone cost in.

@Apocalypso4826

True, but the Vandals having more of an emphasis on slow pushes, turtling, and the early/midgame would contrast them greatly with the Goths (which is also why I removed the cheaper population units bonus; swarms of units are the Goths’ thing). This is also historically justified, since the Vandals were famous for academic institutions more than the Goths were, despite both having a reputation for being lawless barbarians bringing nothing but destruction. The University bonus helps dispel that misconception.

A raider civ with an emphasison academics is indeed distinct and interesting. Your attempt goes in a good direction.

Do you think it would be more interesting if the University bonuses also emphasize a aggresive style rather than defense? For example, for every University technology researched, infantry and the UU gain +5 HP. This might be supposed to work well with the bonuses of -50% food cost and available one age earlier.

@Apocalypso4826

I wouldn’t say a late-game tech with no other bonuses aside from resource generation really pushes them into being a camel civ. They’re still missing BF, so quite a bit of damage output is missing.

You know +40 HP is huge. It would eventually make camels the greatest feature of this civ. Even with lack of BF, it could still be pretty effective against cavalry and have better survivability against other units, especially archers. Just saying, I’m not against this design. It would be fun to connect with the AoE1 Carthaginians.

@Apocalypso4826

Oh, I never thought about it that way…

It’s fine. My personal interpretation is, you know, just my personal interpretation.
Having a tech or not could depend on many reasons, and there could be many interpretations for those various reasons.

@Apocalypso4826

I assume the way to achieve that would be to give them RAA, since BF is already enough of a tech tree hole in the Blacksmith.

Good.

[Apocalypso4826]

@UpmostRook9474

Oh, you count discounts of each civs in. So the Briton TC for example would provide very less wood when destroyed. Okay I agree it would be quite trivial, even for the wood maybe. If I can suggest, maybe increase the percentage from 10% to 50% and not count the stone cost in.

I can consider this.

@UpmostRook9474

A raider civ with an emphasison academics is indeed distinct and interesting. Your attempt goes in a good direction.

Do you think it would be more interesting if the University bonuses also emphasize a aggresive style rather than defense? For example, for every University technology researched, infantry and the UU gain +5 HP. This might be supposed to work well with the bonuses of -50% food cost and available one age earlier.

Well, the example you gave would be completely broken, as the Vandals have access to 10 University techs. That would be a total of 50 extra HP. I can consider something else though.

@UpmostRook9474

You know +40 HP is huge. It would eventually make camels the greatest feature of this civ. Even with lack of BF, it could still be pretty effective against cavalry and have better survivability against other units, especially archers. Just saying, I’m not against this design. It would be fun to connect with the AoE1 Carthaginians.

Yeah, but the tech is expensive and only available in the late game, so I think it would be more of a game ender than anything to base a strategy around.