Karakalpaks are a pretty small group. Historically, splitting Kazakhs and Uzbeks would be justified, but considering how hard it is to come up with a good roster for even an umbrella civ, I think it would be very difficult to come up with multiple meaningfully different Tatar civs.
This article gives some good info on Dzungar weaponry that could be applied to other steppe peoples:
Baghatur could be a possible unit name.
I brought up Karakalpaks because itād make a more consistent civ than the harebrained design Tatars have here. Because they arenāt that larger of a group either and are more known for fighting for other powers (like Poland or Russia) than for fighting as their own thing.
I meanā¦ the article I shared already gives a solid base for a Karakalpak unit roster.
You and I have different standards for what qualifies as a solid base. They only superficially list weapons and armour and say they have guns, swords, lances and bows. As for specific units thereās a few vague maybes:
Navkars - These seem to be some kind of soldiers but itās so vague that they might be an ethnic group.
Aktemir Sniper, Beket Sniper, Black Sniper - Maybe thereās something here but youād need to do some further research.
āChariot Siegeā - Maybe a potential chariot/wagon fort unit could be based on this.
Karakalpaks are a tiny group of people and thereās certainly not enough to go on to make a civ just based on that article. According to the article, they werenāt even part of the Khanate of Kiva which was the main state in the small region. Instead they were part of various Kazakh and Uzbek khanates.
It would be nice to have a couple different steppe civilizations, the challenge is finding enough info to give them a distinct unit roster, which may not be feasible.
Thatās more info than the Lakota + Hauds had for their militaries.
I would also love to have different civs for the Kazakhs and Uzbeks (and maybe even the Mongols), they all have fascinating Histories and could translate into very cools civs, but I feel like Central Asia is not very popular among the playerbase in general. Reallistically I donāt think weāll get either in the future. A Tatar umbrella civ is at least somewhat more likely, especially if bundled with a more popular civ like the Persians. And even that I feel would a bit of a longshot.
I donāt entirely know what calls for calling this design hare-brained. I have tried to politely address your critiques and modify my proposal in light of it.
I donāt think it is realistic to ask for a Central Asian and a Crimean Tatar civilization, but it would be more likely to have a civilization that encompasses elements of various Tatar groups. Iām not sure if the casual observer would really care to differentiate between the finer points of Crimean vs. Karakalpak warfare.
Iāve made some changes.
Teahouse is not wrong, but Caravanserai is infinitely better. They were ubiquitous on the silk road.
Gunsmith is still a pretty weak name for a building. Iād just make it so they train artillery from Castles (or whatever their version of castles may be). They seemed to mainly use cannons for defending such as in the siege of Kazan.
Seymen and Oglan seem a bit too archaic and way too Turkish. Maybe Mangudai could be one of the unit names. Itās based on the Manghuds who ruled Noguy and Bukhara.
I just found some really good articles that give a ton of really specific names for all the ranks and types of soldiers. I havenāt read through all of it yet, but they confirm Navkars are indeed soldiers and give a ton of other unit names like Sarboz (footsoldiers), Mergans (sharpshooters, archers), and Galabatir (special guards).
https://fer-teach.uz/index.php/epai/article/download/233/196
Iām open to the idea of changing Seymen to Merans and Tajiks to Sarboz. Actually, I think Sarbaz is also a Persian term and was used in the Safavid military, so it could be a shared unit with a Persian civilization.
As far as it goes with Caravanserai, I get that, and I understand, but until the developers come out and say that they will change the Indian Caravanserai to a different name, we canāt name two entirely different buildings the same thing. As such, I opted for the Tea House as an alternative, and tried to connect its commercial context by boosting its coin trickle in proximity to TPās.
Iām not decided one way or the other for whether Tatars should have castles, or outposts. I did give them the Rice Paddy, but they also donāt have the Asian age-up system in this particular proposal. In any case, I actually rather find it a forced contrivance that the Japanese, Indians, and Chinese have to build their artillery from a Castle.
I donāt know why this would be a hangup, itās a simple name change. The Indian building is for all intents and purposes already a Stable. It trains only cavalry and has no other special features. The only reason it is was named Caravanserai is because they were designed to be exotic and just have camels and elephants, despite the fact that almost all Sowars rode horses.
Castles are a great fit for any Tatar civ. There are a ton of large cities and strongholds along the silk road, and most of the descriptions Iāve seen of them using artillery is from defensive positions. Iām in total agreement about it being a forced fit for the Asian civs. They should all have foundries or gunpowder workshops.
Bey is a hero unit instead of the Explorer. From the very beginning of the game, we have two Beys
It is the only civilization in the game whose economy is mainly based on robbing other civs. Destroying buildings and killing enemies generates coins.
Tatars civ represent the Turco-Mongols peoples, so this civilization, due to being nomads, has a limited number of buildings available:
Town Center
Village (TRANSFERRED FROM CHINESE CIV)
Consulate
Military Camp - combination of Barracks, Castle and Stable
Mosque
Coastal Bazaar - combination of Market and Docks
Hunting Camp - building that increases the efficiency of extracting resources naturally (wood from trees, food from hunting, breeding animals and collecting berries) - no agriculture due to the nomadic lifestyle. This building replaces Rice Paddy.
IF THE TATARS CIV WILL BE IMPLIED ON ASIAN CIVS (CHINESE, JAPANESE, INDIANS):
The Tatar Consulate would be able to establish diplomatic contacts with: Ukrainians, Ottomans, British or Russians.
The Wonders of this civ could be: Derbent Citadel, Ala al-Din Tekish, Mausoleum of Khoja Ahmed Yasawi, ########## mosque and Gur-e-Amir.
I thought that the Tartars civ could be one big Central Asian civ representing the Mongolian and Turkic peoples through a completely unique mechanic available only to them.
It is obvious that all these nations have nomadic roots. This civ would have the ability to choose a nation during Age Up (up to the 2nd Age and up to the 4th Age).
During Age Up to Age 2 there would be such possibilities:
During Age Up to Age 4 there would be such possibilities:
I think it could be really interesting and give many possibilities to play one civ in many ways.
What about the idea of a āFortress Gunā as an artillery piece instead of the generic Bombard? A slow-moving cannon whose attack scales better the longer it is stationary, or if it is close to defensive structures.
Also, that makes good sense with castles.
Regarding the Caravanserai issue, Iām trying to design this in a manner consistent with what the devs have established, that would not change any existing civilizations, even in a minor way. So if I proposed making the Mercenary building with the name of the Caravanserai, it would mean that the Indian stable would have to get a new name, which Iām afraid is too much of an ask in a proposal request.
āFortress Gunā is overcomplicating things. The benefit to going with a āBombardā is that it could be shared with Ottomans, Persians, Mughals, Somalis, etc.
A single name change is not that big of deal, especially when the Indian building is functionally identical to Stables. To do a proper job, they should be doing far more invasive changes like making Zamburaks have a realistic function and not just be a bad Dragoon.
Each choice option offers two trainable Unique Unit (as well as the shipment of that unit), two Unique Technologies, and some bonus, such as a unique civilian unit, a building (a unique building or a Wagon) or resources.
After a bit of research, hereās a unit roster that could work for a specific civ like Uzbeks, or a more general Tatar civ.
Fires faster the closer the target is. Extra high multipliers against light cavalry.
Mergans would serve as the Uzbek musketeer equivalent. Could be depicted with a Kalpak hat as shown below.
Many depictions of central Asian firearms have a bipod or monopod. This could be depicted by giving them extra range in exchange for a little less health. Being armed with a sword instead of a bayonet should mean they follow the pattern of higher base attack with a lower cav multiplier.
Melee infantry armed with scimitars like shamshir or kilij.
Navkars were the main soldiers of the Uzbek khanates. They could serve as fast and strong Hussar equivalents.
The most elite warriors of Turko-Mongol societies. Could be a very powerful cataphract like heavy cavalry unit similar to a Lifidi Knight.
These were elite Mongol warriors that became the ruling class of khanates like ##### and Bukhara. They would serve as powerful light cavalry units.
The current depiction of Zamburaks in the game as weak light cavalry is extremely far from reality. Zamburaks actually functioned as highly mobile artillery. Indians already have Howdahs for their light cavalry, so there is room to give them a different function that works better for an Uzbek civ. If they were given a design similar to Rifle Riders, they would fit in very well with an Uzbek civ. They should also deal siege damage to reflect the fact that it is a cannon. Rebalanced costing and a limber animation may be needed to keep them balanced.
There are currently Great Bombards and Lāil Bombards, but no regular Bombards. This could serve as a slow firing but powerful Falconet equivalent for all civs that used Turkish sourced artillery (Ottomans, Mughals, Persians, Somalis, etc).
The Mongols used various gunpowder weapons in their conquests and this could be represented by sharing the Hand Mortar unit with China. May not be necessary depending on the functionality of Zamburaks.
Being in a landlocked region makes finding a navy very difficult, but the Tatars did occasionally use boats to cross rivers and fish the inland seas.
They had access to fishing in the Aral and Caspian Seas.
These were Novgorodian pirates that operated on the Volga. They generally raided the Tatars but could be co-opted to provide them with a navy. They could function similarly to the Battle Canoe.
The Caspian Sea is a significant body of water that the Uzbeks bordered. It would be reasonable to assume that it could support moderately sized ships like Galleys. The picture below is just a ship named āTatarā, it is not actually a Tatar ship.
Russia brought a significant naval presence to the area with the Caspian Flotilla and Aral Flotilla. The Persians also had their Northern Fleet in the Caspian. Some of these ships could supplement the Uzbek navy.
A Mughal alliance could give them access to War Dhows
That looks pretty good, and I see this coming together in a collaborative way.
I wonder if there should be two horse archers: the rapid-fire Turcoman, and then the Mangudai. The Mangudai, like its AoE2 predecessor, has a bonus against artillery, at the expense of being less good at fighting other cavalry as youād typically expect for a Horse Archer.
A reworked Zamburak that deals siege damage would do 4 times more damage to artillery so thatās the unit that should be used for anti-artillery. Depending on how much this is emphasized, it might make Hand Mortars redundant. Mangudai should just be all around strong light cavalry.
Turkomans were a major part of the Navkars and Sarboz as well as being represented by the Qizilbash so theyāre not being excluded by not having their own unit. There are also a ton of horse archers now in the game so it would probably be enough to give Uzbeks limited access to them via cards and age ups.
Sibir Khanate - Ships some Tatar Archers and enables a limited amount at the Embassy
Kalmyk Khanate - Ships some Keshigs
Kazan Khanate - Ships some Cavalry Archers
Aq Qoyunlu Allies - Ships some Qizilbash
##### Horde - Ships some Mangudai and improves them
Dzungar Khanate - Ships some Zamburak and improves them
Yam - Enables Steppe Riders at Castles and increases Castle line of sight
