Civilization Proposal: Tatars

Karakalpaks are a pretty small group. Historically, splitting Kazakhs and Uzbeks would be justified, but considering how hard it is to come up with a good roster for even an umbrella civ, I think it would be very difficult to come up with multiple meaningfully different Tatar civs.

This article gives some good info on Dzungar weaponry that could be applied to other steppe peoples:

Weapons and banners of the Muslim population of East Turkestan and adjacent territories in the mid-18th century according to the Qingding Huangyu Xiyu tuzhi

Baghatur could be a possible unit name.

I brought up Karakalpaks because it’d make a more consistent civ than the harebrained design Tatars have here. Because they aren’t that larger of a group either and are more known for fighting for other powers (like Poland or Russia) than for fighting as their own thing.

I mean… the article I shared already gives a solid base for a Karakalpak unit roster.

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You and I have different standards for what qualifies as a solid base. They only superficially list weapons and armour and say they have guns, swords, lances and bows. As for specific units there’s a few vague maybes:

Navkars - These seem to be some kind of soldiers but it’s so vague that they might be an ethnic group.
Aktemir Sniper, Beket Sniper, Black Sniper - Maybe there’s something here but you’d need to do some further research.
“Chariot Siege” - Maybe a potential chariot/wagon fort unit could be based on this.

Karakalpaks are a tiny group of people and there’s certainly not enough to go on to make a civ just based on that article. According to the article, they weren’t even part of the Khanate of Kiva which was the main state in the small region. Instead they were part of various Kazakh and Uzbek khanates.

It would be nice to have a couple different steppe civilizations, the challenge is finding enough info to give them a distinct unit roster, which may not be feasible.

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That’s more info than the Lakota + Hauds had for their militaries.

I would also love to have different civs for the Kazakhs and Uzbeks (and maybe even the Mongols), they all have fascinating Histories and could translate into very cools civs, but I feel like Central Asia is not very popular among the playerbase in general. Reallistically I don’t think we’ll get either in the future. A Tatar umbrella civ is at least somewhat more likely, especially if bundled with a more popular civ like the Persians. And even that I feel would a bit of a longshot.

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I don’t entirely know what calls for calling this design hare-brained. I have tried to politely address your critiques and modify my proposal in light of it.

I don’t think it is realistic to ask for a Central Asian and a Crimean Tatar civilization, but it would be more likely to have a civilization that encompasses elements of various Tatar groups. I’m not sure if the casual observer would really care to differentiate between the finer points of Crimean vs. Karakalpak warfare.

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I’ve made some changes.

  • Dynasties renamed to Hordes.
  • Tea House added
  • Barracks and Gunsmith added to replace Training Ground. Barracks focuses on archaic units, Gunsmith builds artillery and gun infantry
  • Musketman changed to Seymen
  • Mountaineer struck from the roster
  • Tarkan changed to Oglan, as it is the inverse of an Uhlan, which shares an etymology - Oglan is a high-defense, low-attack hussar type
  • Steppe Rider added to the roster
  • Steppe Ambusher up for consideration of removal or a redesign
  • Bhagatur up for consideration to replace Cataphract in name
  • Tajik up for consideration of a rename, pending the finding of a name for a Tatar infantry troop type
  • Camel Gunner added to play the historical role of Zamburaks as a mobile artillery unit
  • Bronze Bombard rendered simply as Bombard
  • Kiva clarified, No-guy replaced by Kazan for censorship
  • Dhow replaces Xebec
  • Galleon added as a placeholder for a transport/maritime barracks

Teahouse is not wrong, but Caravanserai is infinitely better. They were ubiquitous on the silk road.

Gunsmith is still a pretty weak name for a building. I’d just make it so they train artillery from Castles (or whatever their version of castles may be). They seemed to mainly use cannons for defending such as in the siege of Kazan.

Seymen and Oglan seem a bit too archaic and way too Turkish. Maybe Mangudai could be one of the unit names. It’s based on the Manghuds who ruled Noguy and Bukhara.

I just found some really good articles that give a ton of really specific names for all the ranks and types of soldiers. I haven’t read through all of it yet, but they confirm Navkars are indeed soldiers and give a ton of other unit names like Sarboz (footsoldiers), Mergans (sharpshooters, archers), and Galabatir (special guards).

https://fer-teach.uz/index.php/epai/article/download/233/196

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364165632_HISTORY_OF_THE_RELIGIOUS_AND_MILITARY_ADMINISTRATION_IN_THE_CENTRAL_ASIAN_KINGDOMS_THE_EARLY_XVI_TO_XX_CENTURIES

I’m open to the idea of changing Seymen to Merans and Tajiks to Sarboz. Actually, I think Sarbaz is also a Persian term and was used in the Safavid military, so it could be a shared unit with a Persian civilization.

As far as it goes with Caravanserai, I get that, and I understand, but until the developers come out and say that they will change the Indian Caravanserai to a different name, we can’t name two entirely different buildings the same thing. As such, I opted for the Tea House as an alternative, and tried to connect its commercial context by boosting its coin trickle in proximity to TP’s.

I’m not decided one way or the other for whether Tatars should have castles, or outposts. I did give them the Rice Paddy, but they also don’t have the Asian age-up system in this particular proposal. In any case, I actually rather find it a forced contrivance that the Japanese, Indians, and Chinese have to build their artillery from a Castle.

I don’t know why this would be a hangup, it’s a simple name change. The Indian building is for all intents and purposes already a Stable. It trains only cavalry and has no other special features. The only reason it is was named Caravanserai is because they were designed to be exotic and just have camels and elephants, despite the fact that almost all Sowars rode horses.

Castles are a great fit for any Tatar civ. There are a ton of large cities and strongholds along the silk road, and most of the descriptions I’ve seen of them using artillery is from defensive positions. I’m in total agreement about it being a forced fit for the Asian civs. They should all have foundries or gunpowder workshops.

obraz

Tatars

Home City

  • Capital - Tashkent or Bakhchysarai
  • Personality - İslâm III Giray

Units

Barracks

  1. Tatarian Warrior - use a yatagan and Tatar shield
  2. Tatarian Archer
  3. Seymen - Crimean musketeer
  4. Kapikulu - Crimean ranged infantry

Stable

  1. Steppe Rider (TRANSFERRED FROM CHINESE CIV) (Royal Guard)
  2. Keshik (TRANSFERRED FROM CHINESE CIV)
  3. Iron Flail (TRANSFERRED FROM CHINESE CIV)
  4. Cavalry Archer

Artillery Foundry

  1. Grenadier
  2. Culverin
  3. Falconet
  4. Petard

Unique Features

  1. Bey is a hero unit instead of the Explorer. From the very beginning of the game, we have two Beys

  2. It is the only civilization in the game whose economy is mainly based on robbing other civs. Destroying buildings and killing enemies generates coins.

  3. Tatars civ represent the Turco-Mongols peoples, so this civilization, due to being nomads, has a limited number of buildings available:

  • Town Center
    
  • Village (TRANSFERRED FROM CHINESE CIV)
    
  • Consulate
    
  • Military Camp - combination of Barracks, Castle and Stable
    
  • Mosque
    
  • Coastal Bazaar - combination of Market and Docks
    
  • Hunting Camp - building that increases the efficiency of extracting resources naturally (wood from trees, food from hunting, breeding animals and collecting berries) - no agriculture due to the nomadic lifestyle. This building replaces Rice Paddy.
    
  1. This civilization would be very unique in that it would represent the Turco-Mongols peoples. This civilization would cover a huge area of ​​Central Asia, the Don and the Crimea, and would cover such nations as the Mongols, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Crimean Tatars, Siberian Tatars and also Uyghurs. The Mongolian content that is currently in Chinese civ would be transferred to Tatars civ (CHINESE CIV WILL RECEIVE COMPLETELY NEW THINGS IN THIS PLACE).

IF THE TATARS CIV WILL BE IMPLIED ON ASIAN CIVS (CHINESE, JAPANESE, INDIANS):

  1. The Tatar Consulate would be able to establish diplomatic contacts with: Ukrainians, Ottomans, British or Russians.

  2. The Wonders of this civ could be: Derbent Citadel, Ala al-Din Tekish, Mausoleum of Khoja Ahmed Yasawi, ########## mosque and Gur-e-Amir.

I thought that the Tartars civ could be one big Central Asian civ representing the Mongolian and Turkic peoples through a completely unique mechanic available only to them.

It is obvious that all these nations have nomadic roots. This civ would have the ability to choose a nation during Age Up (up to the 2nd Age and up to the 4th Age).

During Age Up to Age 2 there would be such possibilities:

  1. Timurid Empire,
  2. Golden Horde,
  3. Moghulistan
  4. Stay a nomad - Most Mongolian units and the ability to unpack and move buildings (buildings retain the Nomadic look).

During Age Up to Age 4 there would be such possibilities:

  1. Crimean Khanate,
  2. Kazakh Khanate,
  3. Emirate of Bukhara
  4. Stay a nomad (available if you choice “Stay a nomad” before)

I think it could be really interesting and give many possibilities to play one civ in many ways.

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What about the idea of a “Fortress Gun” as an artillery piece instead of the generic Bombard? A slow-moving cannon whose attack scales better the longer it is stationary, or if it is close to defensive structures.

Also, that makes good sense with castles.

Regarding the Caravanserai issue, I’m trying to design this in a manner consistent with what the devs have established, that would not change any existing civilizations, even in a minor way. So if I proposed making the Mercenary building with the name of the Caravanserai, it would mean that the Indian stable would have to get a new name, which I’m afraid is too much of an ask in a proposal request.

“Fortress Gun” is overcomplicating things. The benefit to going with a “Bombard” is that it could be shared with Ottomans, Persians, Mughals, Somalis, etc.

A single name change is not that big of deal, especially when the Indian building is functionally identical to Stables. To do a proper job, they should be doing far more invasive changes like making Zamburaks have a realistic function and not just be a bad Dragoon.

Each choice option offers two trainable Unique Unit (as well as the shipment of that unit), two Unique Technologies, and some bonus, such as a unique civilian unit, a building (a unique building or a Wagon) or resources.

After a bit of research, here’s a unit roster that could work for a specific civ like Uzbeks, or a more general Tatar civ.

Barracks

Recurve Bowman

Fires faster the closer the target is. Extra high multipliers against light cavalry.

Mergan

Mergans would serve as the Uzbek musketeer equivalent. Could be depicted with a Kalpak hat as shown below.

Many depictions of central Asian firearms have a bipod or monopod. This could be depicted by giving them extra range in exchange for a little less health. Being armed with a sword instead of a bayonet should mean they follow the pattern of higher base attack with a lower cav multiplier.

Sarboz/Sarbaz

Melee infantry armed with scimitars like shamshir or kilij.

Stable

Navkar

Navkars were the main soldiers of the Uzbek khanates. They could serve as fast and strong Hussar equivalents.

Baghatur

The most elite warriors of Turko-Mongol societies. Could be a very powerful cataphract like heavy cavalry unit similar to a Lifidi Knight.
image

Mangudai

These were elite Mongol warriors that became the ruling class of khanates like ##### and Bukhara. They would serve as powerful light cavalry units.
image image

Zamburak

The current depiction of Zamburaks in the game as weak light cavalry is extremely far from reality. Zamburaks actually functioned as highly mobile artillery. Indians already have Howdahs for their light cavalry, so there is room to give them a different function that works better for an Uzbek civ. If they were given a design similar to Rifle Riders, they would fit in very well with an Uzbek civ. They should also deal siege damage to reflect the fact that it is a cannon. Rebalanced costing and a limber animation may be needed to keep them balanced.
imageimage

Castle

Bombard

There are currently Great Bombards and L’il Bombards, but no regular Bombards. This could serve as a slow firing but powerful Falconet equivalent for all civs that used Turkish sourced artillery (Ottomans, Mughals, Persians, Somalis, etc).

image

Hand Mortar

The Mongols used various gunpowder weapons in their conquests and this could be represented by sharing the Hand Mortar unit with China. May not be necessary depending on the functionality of Zamburaks.

Dock

Being in a landlocked region makes finding a navy very difficult, but the Tatars did occasionally use boats to cross rivers and fish the inland seas.

Fishing Boat

They had access to fishing in the Aral and Caspian Seas.

Ushkuynik

These were Novgorodian pirates that operated on the Volga. They generally raided the Tatars but could be co-opted to provide them with a navy. They could function similarly to the Battle Canoe.

Galley

The Caspian Sea is a significant body of water that the Uzbeks bordered. It would be reasonable to assume that it could support moderately sized ships like Galleys. The picture below is just a ship named “Tatar”, it is not actually a Tatar ship.

Foreign Ships

Russia brought a significant naval presence to the area with the Caspian Flotilla and Aral Flotilla. The Persians also had their Northern Fleet in the Caspian. Some of these ships could supplement the Uzbek navy.

A Mughal alliance could give them access to War Dhows

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That looks pretty good, and I see this coming together in a collaborative way.

I wonder if there should be two horse archers: the rapid-fire Turcoman, and then the Mangudai. The Mangudai, like its AoE2 predecessor, has a bonus against artillery, at the expense of being less good at fighting other cavalry as you’d typically expect for a Horse Archer.

A reworked Zamburak that deals siege damage would do 4 times more damage to artillery so that’s the unit that should be used for anti-artillery. Depending on how much this is emphasized, it might make Hand Mortars redundant. Mangudai should just be all around strong light cavalry.

Turkomans were a major part of the Navkars and Sarboz as well as being represented by the Qizilbash so they’re not being excluded by not having their own unit. There are also a ton of horse archers now in the game so it would probably be enough to give Uzbeks limited access to them via cards and age ups.

Sibir Khanate - Ships some Tatar Archers and enables a limited amount at the Embassy
Kalmyk Khanate - Ships some Keshigs
Kazan Khanate - Ships some Cavalry Archers
Aq Qoyunlu Allies - Ships some Qizilbash
##### Horde - Ships some Mangudai and improves them
Dzungar Khanate - Ships some Zamburak and improves them
Yam - Enables Steppe Riders at Castles and increases Castle line of sight