Competitive Walls are no longer usable

Only when words and run on sentences take 2x a long to type shall my textwalls be nerfed!
:stuck_out_tongue:

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Walls do not kill enemy units or even improve your eco, they are substitutes for troops in one particular area on the map and allow you to fight larger armies with a smaller force. Resources spent at home means less resources for troops to contest the map. Map resources are always better than infrastructure. The difference between these sources isn’t small either. Map resources probably account for 50% of better gather rates than infrastructure. It’s also a race against time against the trade monopoly. Here is how wall spamming backfired for Revnak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIoTIqbcvxI&t=1648s. If a walling fast industrial (or revolt) is facing off against a non-walling fast-industrial, both will reach their “pops” since neither are rushing but the non-waller will just be there sooner. The problem is probably the “pops” rather than the walls. Also you can turn houses and a fort into a pseudo wall. Look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EOmpJO-vi8&t=1468s

In contrast to Aoe4/2, there is multi seiging up to 4 segments, seige damage is a ranged attack, and pillarless requires far higher apm. You can build more TCs. By 16min, players are pushing 3-4k gather rate. Resource gathering is faster. Forests can be used as impassable barriers. Base defences are so good that you almost want your opponent to rush in and lose their units. A keep can fight off an entire army. A Trebuchet needs 4 or 5 shots to destroy just 1-3 segment of a wooden palisade. A mortar can get 4 of them in 2 shots. The meta in Aoe 4 is to wall off half the map. Farms and trade is really good compared to Mills and planatations. There aren’t alot of hunts and sheeps can be brought to your base.

However, here is the other half of my concern:

In an ideal world, excessive walling should not be necessary and the changes are completely fine relative to most conventional strategies in the game.

The problem arises when the strategies become unconventional or due to game imbalances; generally due to some temporary imbalance in the current game version.

Not too long ago, single compositions of hakkapelits, harqs, or giant grenadiers were too powerful. If a full stack of these units were to get inside someones base,

it usually meant losing factories, or a major portion of the economy. Certain compositions that cannot be defeated on the field needed to be tricked into fighting through walls.

For example, to hold attacks like these:

In the Inca example, he didn’t need any walls to do that.

You have to make sure the walls hold otherwise the defenders will be overwhelmed.

Here is an alternative change that would be more likely to end wall spam AND fast-industrial pop strategies. Make trade monopoly available 1 age earlier. Cost reduction for anything will only reduce spamming in the early game but doesn’t change much regarding fully fledged late game economies. If most of the complaints are regarding the part of the game that goes from 0 - 20 minutes, I think this change would solve more problems without affecting a universal feature.

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I wanted to think through and make it concise with backing evidence.

I think what we here in Aoe3 consider as boring is very subjective to our community but when you start to look outside of it, you just see the difference in opinions:

1.6 million views with overwhelmingly positive reception.

there is the vid of course of iirc viper or someone spamming longbows via walls into someones base then shortly after there was a nerf, and no the aoe4 community to my knowledge was not keen on the wall spam meta they had after stone wall rework. the game aoe4 has changed alot tho through the short time its been around, im sure its swung both ways.

Also no offence, if the game goes long enough for france or inca to get these pop you deserve to loose. None of those examples you have reflect the actual impact of wall changes. Are you aware that the cost of bastion and other walls is virtually untouched? and is slightly buffed? that at 10+ minutes the cost of walling is nil? No change here makes a difference. these are changes that specifically effect early game the most, arguably not at all later on (with extra hp now for many techs to compenstate for cost)

Hakks have been nerfed for about a year now. So has most of the issue you raised, which seems moreso you are trying to lump a long sought change to walls into the devs habit of “what if x unit was just goated” which this was a change months in work

I cant imagine anyone seriously saying it takes more apm to pillarless in aoe3 (click tab delete) then quickwalling in aoe2, hell it takes 2-3x the vills and actually fast reflexes for that and gates let people in so no instant gate trololol stuff.

And I still have to ask, who are you and why are you only concerned for “pro” level stuff despite not playing ranked? because these examples you give are meme strats that literally die to pressure not walling, and are irreverent to the normal players experience with early game wall spamming and the issues civs like russia or aztecs can have. you see wall spammed very often at high levels adn also called for change, and we got one. And your list feels really scattered and not really focused on actual game play, in which most players wall 2-3 layers and spam their way to shadowtech/overvalued units. You can still wall, its just not guaranteed to make you insulated from your opponent’s ability to play the game.

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Fast walling, walling map, and wall spamming via rewalling is still a thing.

There wasn’t longbow spam in the vid I referenced with viper. If you are referring to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjemtqbws6M&t=2278s
That is still very doable and can be done cheaper with wood palisades. The people clearly loved it, just read the top comments. The funny thing is that English is supposed to lose against most other civs late game so seeing this was amazing.

Regarding Inca and France, I don’t know dude… 20 minutes is not a long time to before tupac hits. In the other vid, Kerimb isn’t exactly a bad player either. Given 2 players of equal skill, there’s a lot of situations where one can’t finish the other. Even Lionheart thinks it is overpowered.

I’m not even concerned about the “pro-level” play, the problem is the opposite. The strategies I mentioned don’t take a lot of effort to pull off → Hakkapelits, giant grens, cowboy spam, tupac revolt. It’s just good to the point where it’s overwhelming regardless of who uses it.

Also, anyone can copy a broken build order. Especially in team games, it’s super easy to just get ganked by teamers and your teammates just don’t help. Your base defences and shipments will not be able to handle that.

Bastion is not slightly buffed. It’s exactly the same with 20% more cost. Also, so as long as units can be trained instantly, revolts and cards can push over 200 pop, walls need to be pretty good to counter them. I appreciate that the devs took that into account.

Revolts are mostly untouched and most of the overvalue age 4 church cards are still there. Ottoman 14 min 5 bombards is still a thing. All of Britains church cards are untouched. People can still use houses and forts as pseudo walls, you are still going to have the turtle issue because none of the cards that made turtling worth it have been touched. The one thing every one has been complaining about is still a problem.

Example
Russia barely needed walls to do this → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9fN5A-wUgM
Is this not the campy zero skill strategy that so many people had a problem with? You were literally in his chat and knew what was about to happen. Aren’t you in Sunbros? If there is a strategy - broken or not - sunbros knows about it. XD. Also, I am not GG Revnak.

Regarding early walls, there is also the problem of specific rushes that have been overpowered such as the aztecs which can mass probably 30 plus units sub 6 minutes which some civs are not equipped to handle.

My only point is that the difference between old pillarless walls and the new early walls a bit too much - cost (+220%), build time (50%) for something thats gonna be down in 3 - 9 seconds or less

I’ve given a tonne of evidence with examples and links to prove my point; this is actual play. What pro players do get copied by the casual player base. I don’t fault any of the devs given the difficulty of balancing so many civs, so many cards, so many units. They are the best damn RTS developers I’ve seen. But respectfully, I don’t think nerfing a universal stratagem of fighting from fortifying position when fast industrial and revolts will still exist will solve the problem.

You literally post outdated or meme strats only and make claims that dont really make sense, of a game mode you state you dont play, and think its proof that what has been a consistent issue since DE launched is overturned?

I would recomend prehaps investing your time actually playing ranked and interfacing with this change instead of armchair quarterbacking.

Also the “im gonna be try and throw salt while not disclosing who I am” i really think tells more of your character than me. Again, go play ranked instead of theorizing it and you might see how a 14+ minute 2x revolt from france or last years hakks and giant grens doesnt really interface in the way your trying to make it. Or post outdated vids and false math (its still doable to pillarless btw and same with bastion) while other’s who actually are playing test these changes :slight_smile:

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Hmm a breeze alternate account or just a turtle enjoyer… this one seems hard. :stuck_out_tongue:

Ok, my steam user is Batmane. You will find 0 record, I have never played you or probably most players in Sunbros

Secondly, I posted video evidence of most of my claims with very specific examples. Of course I’m going to do this, otherwise what do we really have to measure off of and to try to be objective? Tupac is not outdated. It was posted 2 days ago. In fact, I’ve done tupac in casual games a few times but back then, you could turn 125 macemen into 125 light cannons.

Thirdly, just because I do not play ranked, does not automatically disqualify my opinion. You can be exposed to the same strategies that are abused on ranked as in casual lobbies. This is ironic considering the Sunbros community generally decries Revnak for being an elitist but then turn around and say hand waives other peoples opinions based on rank?

I did not mean to throw any salt, I was complementing the Sunbros community.

I think I’ve debated in good faith, considering I actually respected you enough to find evidence to show you.

Aside from actually addressing the points I made, you essentially just replied with “Just trust me bro”

Please stop bringing your buddy name into it and stirring drama. Given your sort of vauge approach, im gently trying to explain like I said earlier how 2 were meme strats, and the rest outdated. If you want to debate best, when you say things like “we need walls cause the 14 minute French revolt that the opponent also played very passive into is proof” its just not a good video on actual normal ladder play. The core issue is these scenarios arent great representation. A good haude rush, aztec rush, lakota vill etc on this patch showing the wood cost actually causing issues would be better. As is, I just dont think the examples you bring are very relevant to real aoe3 games nor demonstrate that walls are now underpowered.

My complaint is that shooting through walls makes them useless! Please make shooting available only to units that can actually shoot over the top of the wall, for Archers, Grenaders, Mortar. e.c.t.

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Nice, you have my same playstyle, i will tell you this: pillarless walls were an abomination, which is still present but not as strong before luckly, walls are meant to have pillars and that is how it should always be built, there are many paths that can be tread to solve the abomination of pillarless walls, this is one of them, and we will see how it goes, if it isn’t the right one it will be changed, but the objective remain, pillarless walls must be removed!!

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They shouldnt have given mortars a x2 vs walls, they didnt need it; like morutarus dont need a 10% damage card either.

They were already good taking down walls. Now it is too easy for them while the bonus duplicates the difference between units:

Sige elephant: 800 → 1600 [7pop] (RoF 6)

Mortar: 925 → 1850 [4] (6)

Morutaru: 673 → 1346 [3] (6)

(!)Hand Mortar: 170 → 340 [1] (4)

(!)AK: 107 → 214 [2] (3)

Add to this their longer range and easier micro, as 4 or 5 of them are enough while the other civs need more units needing more space (aztecs, China) or be nearer (India). Only (!) needed that high bonus.

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That might work for other AoE games, but it’d be horrible for balance here. There are civs with extremely strong melee units that basically require civs like Portuguese to use walls late game.

British, Malta, Inca, Aztec and Japan would instantly become instantly top tier late game civs based on archers along. I’m talking about so far up that there are multiple empty tiers below them before you see anything stuck using gunpowder.

Other civs would be pushed towards melee units, which would just be odd. This change would actually push all civs backwards technologically. Arrows > gunpowder. Melee > gunpowder. And strangely enough, it would push them there late in the game only. “Lay down your guns, you must pick up your swords and bows to have any hope to defend your homeland!” Lol.

Imagine 50 dopps sieging your wall. Now imagine you, as the Portuguese must wait for them to get through before engaging.

Unless you have a massive amount of map with large spaces between each wall (ie open ground for hit n run), there’s not much you’ll be able to do. And even if you have a lot of map, they will just build military buildings and walls there as they push.

Eventually you’ll be stuck in melee combat, and will lose. That’ll probably happen in your base, meaning all the vills can die too.

If all archers and melee units were horrible late game this could maybe work, but since archers are balanced with gunpowder units, you’d have to rebalance the entire game or just embrace technological devolution.

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What do you mean? Describe the problem. Melee units cannot fight through walls, and “50 dopps sieging your wall” - In any case, there is NO point in keeping melee units under the wall. Now I’m seeing the opposite - gunpowder units are very popular. Do you really like it when your gunpowder units are bombarded by artillery, (especially the Falconets through wall!) - This is the first reason why I proposed limiting shooting through walls.

If the dopps are attacking (sieging the wall) the you are forced to either: A, come outside your wall and get ripped to pieces. Or B, wait for me to break the wall.

Once the wall is broken I’m inside. My dopps can beat your skirms in melee. I can also flood in with Uhlans. You can’t shoot me until I’m in. There are civs who rely on walls to avoid fighting in melee (Ports at least, also probably Ruyter/Skirm Dutch) because they can’t trade well enough in melee.

If you walled your base to avoid my Uhlan raids, you can’t endlessly hit ‘n’ run back. You’re forced to stand and fight else I idle or kill your vills.

I’m saying skirms (and it goes double for Cassadors) don’t trade well once the dopps (and other similar units) are in their face.

Disallowing ranged units to shoot through walls causes a offensive advantage towards units good at fighting in close quarters.

It also massively buffs archer civs if you let them shoot over walls for obvious reasons.

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imo most of the problems with walling is solved with clever building placement, this isn’t aoe4, you can use every building to create a makeshift wall, just like aoe2, so no, defensive is hardly impossible, if you relied entirely on pillarless walls to do it then thats a you problem, game isn’t preventing you from using other options

Basically this. I keep telling new players to simply build their base as if it was a wall, this makes it 200% harder to get rushed

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Pillarless are still good. They are still cheaper, faster to build, provide line of sight and still give u a few seconds to prepare to fight an army or defend a raid.

But the number 1 factor of why pillarless walls are still good is pathing. Vills usually get stuck and remain iddle after building a few walls with pillars. The consequence is segments of the wall unfinished, which results in the whole purpose of the wall being unmet.

Fix pathing, and maybe you’ll start see some proper walls on competitive games.

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