Then you certainly missed simething. It’s fair to argue civs like burgundians teutons or malay are somewhat better but Italians is like top 10 civ on arena nowadays. While vikings and chinese are pretty average on here. Not the greatest civs for these kind of maps. Go take a look at last arena tournament for instance.

Dude did you ever play them? There is good reasons why you don’t see them a lot on open maps but in scenarios where you can get to castles and have protected eco they simply stomp any cav option from your opponent. The only downside of the unit really is that Italians lack halb bc of them.

can start massing before imperial age… for a bigger power spike… same idea as eagles

Well once you are fully boomed and you have 50-60 farms, full upgrades and 10 stables, hussars are a better option as a meat shield unless you need to deal with stuff like eagle warriors, malian champions or goths. Condos time window comes before that stage.

I’m not saying condos are the main reason of italians being good on arena, they’re not a tech you play every game (also because italians lack halbs so there’s no reason to invest into infantry upgrades outside of condos), but they fill a niche that helps expecially in some match-ups and they’re nice to have.

given infinite resources, anything counters anything. You can argue that Indians with full Imperial Camel beat Franks late game army comp.

Really, the best comparison for Genoese is something like Longbowman.

  • really similar prices (Longbowman slightly cheaper)
  • both must be massed from Castle which requires a lengthy stone-gathering process
  • both are a “different take on an archer unit”

But Longbowman has base 6 attack (same as Genoese), 7 with elite (1 more than Genoese) and FAR more range.

This to me looks like a unit that I want out of a Castle, it has massive range improvement and 1 more attack than Arbalest. It is good vs EVERY unit (including Paladins where Genoese are only slightly better).

Meanwhile Genoese counters a full cav that you will likely not see as Italians and is trash vs EVERYTHING else because it has 6 attack in Imp and 4 range.

With 5 range it would be a good unit, but with 4 range, it’s just not good, sorry. Range in this game is important. I am sure it’s possible to win games with them, and sometimes the situation calls for them, under the perfect star alignment where you are ahead, have a castle, and opponent goes cav vs you, you do make Genoese, yes… then again, I’ve seen Viper win tournaments with Ballista Elephants also.

Condos is gunpowder counter on paper with positive bonus damage (+10 vs gunpowder). But increasing PA is definitely a bad idea. If gunpowder units have a negative bonus dmg against Condos (eg. -5 vs Condottierro) condos can be a better counter. But I dont know if it is feasible under the game mechanics.

Yeah but long term there are better solutions. I mean, condos insta savings are good only if you can use it to close the game fast, otherwise it’s better to try to stall the game and get better units, because the condos are individually expensive and not that great stat-wise.

Against other infantry, your FU champs are simply better as a meatshield, also because you can field better units to back your champs (cheap HC and BBC, pavise arbs and GC, hussars for raids…).

Against malians is even better to go for hussars anyway, since long term you’ll probably win.

Against eagles condos on paper seems like a good option because they can better keep up with speed, but they also need all their upgrades (pavise included) to counter EEW, and they just barely win against mayan EEW by 1 hit, while also cost 15 resources more.

Condos right now are just a trump card, that can surprise your opponent, or that can be used as a panic button in case you need some infantry in imp as fast as you can. But it’s not cost effective against anything.

But isn’t it better to just click up to imp sooner since it’s cheaper…

Exactly. I wasn’t trying to suggest to increase the condo base PA, I was trying to say that it’s difficult to increase the hidden resistance against the gunpowder without changing some core meccanics.

I mean, for an infantry unit condos deal well against gunpowder, and have the advantage to not need most upgrades. But unless the enemy completely take you by surprise with gunpowder (which is unlikely, since it’s a rare unit, and since he’ll probably anticipate the condo switch) skirms and hussars are a better and more versatile option, and most likely you’ll have at least the upgrades of one of the 2.

Dude, really? Italians late game is considered one of the strongest. They aren’t that played because they have a weak early game, but they don’t need infinite resources to prove their might.

It’s not like we LB much more often than the GC… the GC actually offers something different than the LB, which for the britons isn’t much more than an upgrade over the arb (which usually sticks with…).

I mean, the GC have its problems, I’m not denying that, but they do what they should do, which is killing cav.

So ok first:

  • the LB have just +1 range over the britons arbs, which most of the times don’t justify their cost.
  • LB can counter paladins, but only when they reach a critical mass, which force their opponent paladins to take too many hits before hitting back. The GC cba do the same but with far less units, both because of their bonus and because they are tankier, so they survive less.

Then, is it overall the LB a better UU than the GC, well maybe yes, but the difference isn’t that big as you are selling it.

Look, I don’t even want that this topic become another topic over the GC range and why meta is that way…

The italians have also good arbs, which miss the top 5 tier by little (probably they are arguably the 6th best arbs) so use them instead.

They do have an overpriced elite cost for what it gives… but it’s not that crucial.

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I actually prefer to have a shared generic unit instead of a trash shared unit that isn’t used in TGs.

Condos are fine as a generic unit, much like the champ, they just need to counter eagles a bit better to fit that role.

Yeah but getting a castle when condo rushing is a huge step back. Pavise for condos is really useful only if you already have it for you xbows, and you are preparing a condo switch.

The condo cannot be considered a main unit for most of these civs, and neither a substitute for knights. Most of those civs are better off with their main units, and maybe, just maybe use some condo as support.

Celts, japs, and maybe vikings are the ones that probably can use them the most, all other have better options.

I mean, indians have extra PA on LC and meso have eagles, both are better archer counters.

But still they justify the difference of power that there is with the knight line.

The same eagles which receive +10 damage from Hand Cannoneers. Practically the only advantage the eagle has over the champion is speed. Champs receive 22 damage, Eagles receive 19 (17 fot Incas) damage. They don’t have any attack bonuses unlike Huskarls and Condos.

i meant start massing once you have clicked up. like how having access to bloodlines in feudal usually works

but wont deny they are a pretty niche unit, but being able to mass them sooner just gives them slightly more options

I always took Condos as a superb filler unit for screening tech switches, buying time, or for helping with situations that your ally’s civilization may not be otherwise not built for. The primary Castle Age counter unit to Hussite Wagons would be the Monk, though Longswords and Knights work very well.

No question that longbow is the better general unit. But while they essentially are a better version of arb genoese xbow fulfill a very specific purpose.

It’s not trash at everything else. It’s also a great infantry counter bc of more melee armor and hp. It’s just not a good choice vs archers but you have other units for that role as Italians.

Pls what? Genoese do 10 dmg to paladin while longbow does 4. The extra range doesn’t make up for that the slightest.

You don’t need to be ahead to play genoese. Again this unit usually doesn’t make a lot of sense on arabia but there is a lot of maps where you can play them and the unit can be insanely good here. I’ve won countless games with them.

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It does seem inconsistent, Condos are the only UU that isn’t available in Castle Age AFAIK (excluding upgrades like Imperial Skirm and Houfnice, true unique unit lines). Even secondary (non-castle) units like Slingers, Genitours and Turtle Ships are available in Castle Age. Not sure it actually helps Italians much if they do become available earlier, but it can’t hurt.

Edit: What if their stats were not changed for Castle Age. Would a unit similar to a two handed swordsmen (higher HP, but attack is lower by 2) be too strong in the mid game? I believe Condos still lose to Castle Age Obuchs, and they cost more (35g for Condo vs 20g for swordsman or Obuch). They probably lose to longswordsmen with equal resources spent (can anyone confirm?). This could actually be the buff Italians need on land maps, a temporary infantry power spike in the early castle age. Just not sure what they would need to lose on water to stay balanced.

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Not every civ has redemption. Moreover monks work in small numbers only.

Also remember what Emperor Sigismund said, “only Bohemians can defeat Bohemians”

Flaming Camel and Flemish militia are not available either

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I don’t think you necessarly need to close the game fast for justifying making condos. I agree you want to get value quickly from them, but you can just use them for getting some momentum or map control and then transition into hussars or something else.

Also the comparison with fully upgraded eagles isn’t really fair, since they require 2 more expensive imp upgrades (elite and UT depending on the civ) to be fully upgraded, so condos have a time window to trade versus not full upgrade eagles.

Example of what I’m talking about:

2:32:00 onwards, Viper used condos to prevent the potential snowball push with eagles and siege, get back map control while teching into crossbows and then play the tech switch into hussars.

Eagles will be always be a better choice for the meso civs over the condos for a number of reasons:

  • their low food cost allows them to be massed in the feudal age.
  • gunpowder is a rare unit, while archers are way more common. Eagles are good vs archers, while condo not, so most of the time they are the better units.
  • meso have also UTs for the eagles, and especially mayans get a crazy good unit capable of killing generic FU cavaliers.
  • eagles are the fastest infantry in the game.

It can if you are allied with goths, celts or malians for example…

But even for Italians, condos stats are closer to the 2HS than to the LS, especially with pavise. So in castle age it might be too much…

Imagine a knight rush, just with condos. They need less upgrades in early castle age, and the BS upgrades cost even less. You can get way more condos out than knights, and late feudal units can’t kill them.

I won’t say that it would become the best strategy, but it wouldn’t be balanced either.

Yeah, but the advantage needs to be big, Na dyou also need to transition into something else, since at some point the cost of the condos overweight the resources saved on the upgrades.

If one is careful, it’s not that hard to get the right timing and fight only when your eagles are FU, especially on maps like arena.

Also, eagles are in general a better rounded unit.

No. Just no. They are great how they are. Not OP at all :wink: