Rather strong especially halb since Spanish also get siege ram.
2 Likes
But both Ports and Berbers do not get FU Trash, and neither has Paladin.
In fact, going Stables as Ports outside of Knight Rush, is basically unviable, as they do not even have Hussars, and Berbers lack Halbs, so their Barracks is mostly useless in Trash Wars.
Spanish have a much better UU than Ports ever did, and they beat Ports soundly in lategame Land maps, due to having better Infantry and Cavalry than Ports (no Squires, no Hussar, no Paladin).
The only advanatge Ports have is better Archery Range, and Berbers can only come out ahead with Camels, until Spanish go for Halb + SRam combo.
All in all, the Spanish already have everything they need to win any matchup.
It is true that specialist civs are more powerful in Ranked 1v1, but not all civs can be specialists, as that would mean the game would have stopped adding civs long ago.
3 Likes
full barracks, full archery range except parth and hand cannon, capped ram, onager, with siege engineers.
cavalier and light cav with full BS upgrades, just lacking bloodlines, early and mid game eco bonuses,
basic siege? they literally get trebs with blast and 100% accuracy and siege engineers. “Basic”
full archery range except parth and hand cannon
full barracks.
Cavalier + light cav + heavy camel with bloodlines husbandry and full BS upgrades
and full archery range except Thumb Ring + full BS upgrades
and Hussar + cavalier + battle elephants + full BS upgrades
no, i just disagree with buffing a civ where it doesn’t need to be buffed. there is a difference.
let me ask you this. if a civ is winning 50% of its games that reach late game, but only 20% of the games that end during the early game, should i buff it during the late game, where its clearly fine, or during the early game, where its clearly weak?
that is the problem with your buff. it does nothing for them where they are weak. that is why i am against it.
BECAUSE YOUR BUFFS TARGET A PERIOD WHERE THEY ARE STRONG. you need to buff them where they are WEAK.
True, but the point is that both portos and berbers (but other civs too…) have a bonus that let them save overall more gold in the long run.
Spanish may seem to save a lot of gold, but in reality the gold that they save is limited for 3 reasons:
- after grabbing all the techs they don’t have anything.
- a discount on a unit is more useful, since it’s more immediate and flexible than a tech.
- it really depends by what units you use. Since infantry isn’t that much used, and they don’t have xbows, it usually only revolves around knights.
Then the further you go in the game, the more techs you grab, the more you save, but still you need to survive that long.
Except the means to survive to heavy pressure early on. As spanish you are a bit limited on that. Your FC isn’t particularly fast, you knights are strongher, you lack xbows (which is big) and to really use your potential you need to age up to castle and imp (especially if you want to use the BL bonus or my hypothetical bonus too).
I think that if you can reach castle and imp with spanish, you should be rewarded.
And it would be more balanced than buffing conqs, since they were nerfed with DE, and some people don’t want the old conqs unfortunately 
(by the way, conqs were and remain my favorite UU).
Yeah I know that it may seem a powerful gold-less combo, but it’s something that usually come in really late. By that time you can be killed several times by some more aggressive civ.
I see spanish a bit like Italians (I mean of course they are better than Italians, but the principle is the same…). They have a good tech tree on paper, but no bonus that help them to make a good use out of it.
Bizzantines on the countrary, have a good tech tree, and bonuses that actually help them to use that good tech tree.
2 Likes
You already are, you can get Blacksmith upgrades while have fewer Vills on gold, and get Conqs in Castle.
In Imp they get less, but still have the option of all FU Trash Units, which most other civs lack.
I definitely do not want old Conqs, they were unbeatable, and had no counter that actually worked.
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And despite it pains me to say it, I agree. They were arguably the best UU and in a broken way.
I meant, they should be rewarded more than they are now. In feudal age they save 50g, which is basically nothing. In castle age they have an hypothetical save of 620g, which will never be used to its full extent. In imp you get even more, again you almost never use the full extent of the bonus.
This bonus isn’t really aimed to extend the maximum of gold saved, but to extend the pool of techs that you can grad to save some gold. The spanish even this way they would still be behind bizzantines, malay, magyars and persians as a trash civ.
2 Likes
They already get Supremacy. Siege Vills may be a fun meme, but would also quickly become an OP one for Spanish too.
People already complain about Incas Vills, imagine the complains from Spanish Vill Rush destroying buildings faster than M@A or saracens Archers.
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They problem would not even be the Sappers tech, the problem would be a +5 damage bonus in Feudal (Walls would not stop Spanish, a couple of Vills and they would just break any wall and allow the Scouts in) and the fact that Spanish already have an UT that overcharges the Villager stats, and makes them decent at combat.
They already get faster building villagers that can help walling better, trushing spanish is a bad idea, common conq play in castle age also means a possibly defensive castle which roughly guarantees the game goes to post imp. They got good monks, FU knights. Now you also give them cheaper eskirm and pikeman upgrade. Its not like these aggressive civs have a win button
2 Likes
Their walling isn’t better than civ like celts, that for example can have a vill less on wood to use for walls. And their trash wouldn’t be cheaper than bizzantines or chinese (cheaper units and cheaper techs).
Those aggressive civ can still do a lot of damage in feudal (when spanish don’t have anything) and in castle (when they would have just 270g more).
They lack xbows, and they knights and monks while being good, don’t have anything special.
And yours trash upgrade cost no gold also comes in imp mostly (1200 gold in imp vs 220 gold in castle) where they are already strong. Also they are the only civ with all 3 FU trash. Why do they need to (indirectly) buff their trash? Feels kinda wrong direction to me.
I read this on a youtube comment on Ornlu’s channel -
Military buildings including docks techs (not unit upgrades) cost no gold.
Barracks - 100 from Supplies and 50 from Arson. Not the most important savings here.
Range - 0
Stable - 100 from Bloodlines. Perhaps the most important one as you are researching this whether you go for conqs or knight.
Dock - 150 from Carracks, 300 from Dry Dock and 400 from Shipwright. Not that much big but together with their full tech tree, they can be decent on water. This will buff them in nomad too where they are already top tier. That could be a problem.
I personally want their faster building up to 50% for houses and drop off buildings while everything else remains 30%. And wonder 20% of course.
Because the idea is that if they get there, they are rewarded. They should be weak in feudal age, a bit better in castle, and really really strong in imp.
That’s pretty Meh as bonus. I had the same idea but in the end only BL is that important. Arson and supplies aren’t that prioritized.
Yeah they are and that’s basically why some of us asking a buff in feudal. Not too big though.
Yes but at least you are getting something in feudal. Currently the only gold discount you get in feudal is 50 gold from Fletching and you have little to no reason research that tech in feudal unless you go for TRUSH.
I personally like this one more.
If they are supposed to be weak in feudal then why buff them?
It wouldn’t be a buff for feudal age. BL is at best researched on the way to castle age, because it idles so much your stables, so you take it before switching to knights, so it’s not the buff that you think of. It better to have no gold on the upgrade for skirms, which are a fantastic support unit for knights instead.
Here he explains why for scouts you usually don’t grab any tech, especially BL.
You are buffing by a little the construction speed of buildings that already take little time.
If you want to be good, you need to include military buildings, markets, universities and blacksmith and especially TC. Otherwise it’s pretty much the same.
1 Like
Conqs aren’t even affected by their own bonus of gunpowder units firing faster which is Sadge
they already fire faster then most gunpowder units, 2.9 > 3.45, so its literally built into the unit.
also the bonus literally says hand cannons and bombards.
4 Likes
I see you aren’t a fan of consistency when Turks got fixed back in Forgotten Empires release when Janissaries got affected by their own team bonus.
Conqs are really easy to counter nowadays. Just throw skirms with a gold unit of your choice and breeze through life easy
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they literally already benefit from it. you just don’t see it.
if conq was like every other gunpowder unit, its attack speed would be 3.45 baseline.
and yet its 2.9.
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Feels like too weak and can’t go to the castle/imp smoothly where they can be rewarded.
Honestly I’m not saying this one will solve all the problem. And I actually like that proposal mostly bcz of the dock tech discount. And yeah, Supplies, Arson discount is negligible.
But the amount of time you spent on building house and drop-off buildings is not that little tbh.
This will buff their mid game while I want to buff them on early game. So didn’t include.
Would definitely add if 50% faster TC built was not OP/broken in nomad.
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I meant that if you buff the percentage of an already small number by a little margin you don’t get a tangible effect…
And still the most important part of the bonus are TC and military buildings.
Yeah but on water they would still be far from civs like Italians and vikings, and not even on the level or portos, koreans or mongols.
The starting TC can have different building time than the other ones, just look at cumans.
Yeah but that’s the point, not all civs need to be good on feudal. Some can endure the feudal struggle if they are then rewarded when hitting castle age and imp.
That what I would personally want for spanish, instead of having another good feudal civ, let them have something that rewards having survived the early game.
Most of the times you don’t close the game in feudal age, so this way even if spanish lose some vills or don’t have a great castle time, they can catch up by not having to spend gold on defensive or support units.
In my opinion is better than giving them a useless feudal land bonus that help little in water maps too.