Coop battles and upcoming Balance changes

For those that want style:
Hand Cannoneer: Increase accuracy from 65% to 75%
Cavalry Archer (Standard and Heavy): Attack animation increased from 1.15 to 1.17
Burgundians: Flemish revolution cost increased from 800 food, 450 gold to 1200 food,
650 gold.
Burgundians: Flemish militia no longer deals damage vs buildings (still gets +2 from
Persians: War Elephant cost adjusted to 170 food (from 200 food) and 85 gold (from 75),
Training time reduced from 31 secs to 25 secs.
Slavs: Elite Boyar +2 melee armor (from 6 to 8).
Turks: Artillery technology Stone cost replaced by wood (450 stone to wood), Gold cost
the same.


Quick Comments about all:
Hand Cannoneer buff was totally demanded and deserved, now should be better to use.
Cavalry archer nerf was 100% expected, they are way too dominant as unit, but still something not drastic.
Burgundians nerfs looks like aren’t enough, the tech still needs a rework, the Flemish rev is still affordable with the s tier burgundians eco
Persians war ele buff wan’t neccesary imo, the unit is incredibly strong post imperial, but right now isn’t nothing soo abrpt so they should be more viable at least.
Slavs will essentially kill all paladins now and essentially be the mounted TK, gg Teutonic Paladins, gg Lith paladins (But Lithuanians still get Leitis to make them cry).
Turks change is really welcomed, now at least I can make my FI with castle more appealing 11


I’m okay with most of this.

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I wish he didn’t give away the CA change, it would have been fun to see all the people who said CA were nerfed compared to AoC just completely miss out on the nerf 11

I hope the memish rev nerf is like when they made arambai firing slower, ie. a bandaid to make the game somewhat less frustrating while they come up with an actually meaningful rework let’s be real removing the gimmick part and leaving the create at TC part would have been better for us to wait in peace


I agree with a lot of these changes but will no stone for Turks artillery be too strong? I feel like if you fast imp into castle drop inside their base you can range way too much of their base with this tech. Turks are already really strong on arena it could get too much we could end up with FI castle drop into super fast UT into straight away few hussars with the new pierce armour. Civ is very strong on arena TG ATM in the right hands with so many free this free that, we need a little for this civ to be slowed down to non op levels imo.


I’m not too sure FI artillery would become a viable thing, as FI is usually a low eco build, but now it will be easy for Turks to get +2 range BBC every game, an now that you’re saving the stone cost of 2 BBT when getting the techs, they will pros be better at BBT spamming than Turks and Portuguese.

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You can be slung stone you could often buy a little if you didn’t make TCS and mine the rest in FI. The troublesome part will be when you castle drop and Turks have 14 range BBCs underneath it that range the almost entire base come near it your dead too might be the next big strat alongside Flemish revolution 11. Kill his base easy and drop TC where his farms were steal his farms with your Vils and straight into hussar production it seems nuts strong to me if you can pull it off/get good matchup

Sounds more like a singling problem to me, but ig wood is indeed easier to sling than stone.

Good changes overall. I really appreciate that they’re taking these changes in a very delicate direction. Incremental change is good, especially when the game is in a good balance state already.

I like that they’re emphasizing the way people should be countering Flemish Revolution; through hard defenses, not via units. This change should give players a bit longer to prepare for it, and should make them a little bit worse at tearing through building walls. Players keep sending their armies into a 200 pop mob of infantry and whining that it’s overpowered, it’s no better than trying to kill goths with archers and making the same complaints.

Now that I think about the war elephants, I actually rather like the change they’re going for here. Gold is more valuable lategame and food is more valuable early-game, so this should make them more viable early on, and less dominant in lategame of team games, both of which are good changes.


All really good suggestions. Didnt think anyone would have the balls to even consider making war elephants more viable in castle age, but here it is and i love it.

Those aren’t suggestions, are indeed the upcoming balance changes


suggestions by the devs (upside down emoji)

Really? How were they found (edit my internet is bad and I’m half asleep didn’t see the video just text wtf )

Where is Portuguese buff ;(

Flemish revolution change won’t be enough. Or at least any fixed cost solution will only be balanced for a narrow range of villagers at the exclusion of other ranges. If it is balanced for X +/- y villagers it will not be balanced for villagers > X +y or villagers < X- y. y can only be around 10 if I had to guess.

The issue with the tech is numerous:

  1. you can mass units cheaper than their upgraded counterpart. No military upgrade has this property at this magnitude (villagers are 40% cheaper than flemish militia). This is the primary reason fixed cost solutions cant work.
  2. The above combined with losing villagers creates a loan. You loan the player the marginal cost of upgrading the units and they pay it back with lost production. Unfortunately present value (PV) of loans are not easy to calculate when the time horizon is stochastic and can create hyperbolic discounting which makes the PV much higher than you would intuitively think. This amplifies the issue of fixed cost solutions.
  3. Military units already have an opportunity cost in terms of not making extra TCs and villagers. E.g. you are effectively borrowing from the future by going 1 TC pressure rather than 3 TC boom. This means flemish revolutions present value is higher than even the shorter time horizon would indicate. That is the true cost of flemish revolution is only how far off the optimal villager: military ratio it puts you. If 50 vills: 150 instant military were optimal then the cost is only those 50 villagers being lost.
  4. villagers are inherently safer while obtaining maximum return. Stone defenses are very cheap for the protection they provide. Military units have a good chance of dying while obtaining maximum return. This makes flemish revolution act on many more units than military upgrades. This means comparing to other upgrades will be ddeceptive.
  5. the new cost is approximately the same as militia → champion. But due to the above reasons this is too low. Acting like the above dynamics don’t exist and just increasing the fixed cost won’t get you anywhere.

All together these imply that the present value of spotting the player the 10f and 25g for each militia has a much higher present value than intuition would generate. This is why many players can use flemish militia and win the game by a wide margin (many surviving units).

Fixed costs can only work if a fixed number of villagers are converted. There exists an idle military hotkey for selecting them even if the conversion is random. Otherwise you need to have the cost be on a per unit basis or make flemish militia a unit whose value is closer to 50f.

Edit: I want to point out that first crusade and cuman mercenaries are much more balanced precisely because there is a cap on the number of units generated.


This is a poor justification for imbalance. Lanchester’s Laws show that a winning engagement will typically result with most units on the winning side surviving. Only extremely balanced fights will result in victory by small margins.

None of your arguments are intrinsically flaws. Every one of them is an intended feature of the tech.

The only potential flaw of the tech is that players must preemptively prepare for the tech to occur, but that is the case for many civs with periods of relative strength and weakness. You can’t make archers against goths, for example. But that does not mean the Goths are overpowered.

In point of fact, the tech is arguably already underpowered. Players using it sacrifice much more than they gain in the long term as they attempt to rebuild their economy. Should the attack fail, they will find themselves in a significantly disadvantaged position.

The ‘problem’, is that the proper response to the tech is nontraditional, and many players are resistant to doing it. The simple addition of a layer or two of hard defenses essentially neuters the tech completely. Instead, you’ll see players try repeatedly to send 40 troops into 200, and get confused when they die.

This is why the changes in this patch are very smart. By making hard defenses an even harder counter, it will encourage players down those lines. Once they learn, it may even be possible to undo this nerf at a later date.


Flemish revolution cost increased to 1000 food and 600 gold.
Vineyards no longer make farms generate gold.
Stable technologies are 40% cheaper.

Elite boyar +1 meele armor (7).

Artillery technology stone cost replaced by 500 wood.

These changes should be more effective. But oh well.

There’s always a critic.

HC buff!

Actually, they may be usable for a lot of civs: turks, portuguese, spanish, indians, burgundians, and italians for sure, but also koreans (free armor upgrades) and other civs such as goths will welcome the change.


I agree that Turks artillery buff was not necessary. They already Too Strong in Arena and one of the best civ in Imp when Gold is available. Artillery was expensive but the tech itself worth research. BBT cannot be taken down with enemy BBC is so HUGE. Same with Crenellation tech of Teutons. It also cost much of stone but no one complains it is too expensive. Turks extra Range BBC is also so effective when enemy is Teutons.

Also Turks benefits from buffed HC. I don’t think this was necessary change either. I would rather increase bonus damage against Infantry. Now Turks FI is really unstoppable strategy in Arena.