Could the Healfortress Strategy work vs the Viper?

I dont think if two top Players where one would use this strategy would ever make it viable. You basiscly Always Set yourself behind the player who Booms freely without any defense. Top Players are masters of greed, defending with as little units as possible and getting max value Out of the Units they have.
If this would be the best way to Play defencive, i think the Players that are around for many many years would have figured it Out.

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Selecting one player out of any number of players who use it, even if he happens to be the only one, will draw misinformation by looking at that player’s ability to pull it off and it being imperfect in the way that things are done.

I’m obviously currently in the 1150 range, and that’s my current ability talking, not the strategy - my imagination says it’s possible to do much better, and I believe it, so if I were to either improve greatly or someone else with greater skill and apm were to utilize it in a way I have not, then of course I’ll believe it, because I believe it can be done, and that’s the first step in taking something like this guideline of a strategy and running with it.

There’s always a bigger fish regardless of which strategy you look at and judge by its lesser users.

Much of my current flaws reside in my ability to understand the opponents’ flow and making the correct decision to break it or surpass it based on the situation, which is currently minimal and can be vastly improved on, and that’s what I mainly lack, apm aside, which stands to be another place I lack, though I do improve my apm by practicing my hotkeys to be perfect for my memory the draw on hopefully with enough speed to be ‘quick enough’ yet accurate to a T.

My flaws are not the strategies’ flaws, they are my own - and rushes may be incorporated into the strategy - the lack of a rush on my part is a flaw of my own ability, not the strategy - it is as flexible as wanted, and that makes it possible to reach any elo based on the user overall skill.

Any strategy may be defeated with one that provides the most options.

The Teutonic Fortress strategy, which started with the Teutonic Healing Fortress Formation as the premise is the artform of combat I follow, and even though I created it, I realize I am no master of its strengths.
I am proud of the strategy, not myself. I present the Tools, but someone, be it a future version of me or someone greater, will take it and run with it.

Do I believe given the correct user and the correct understanding that someone utilizing these tools, which are as flexible as needed, may take down even viper? Yes.

Do I think I can given my current skill? No.

Any flaw perceived is due to my own, not the strategy, and even my guides are imperfect representations of the picture I see that is hard to grasp In the first place yet is beautiful enough that I chose to dedicate much time to its understanding. the current ones are outdated, and I really should bring an updated guide in at some point to draw a picture that’s just a little bit clearer of what I see as I attempt to see clearer into its frame myself.

Another way to look at it is this- could viper defeat viper if viper used this strategy, which is a guideline and variable in its usage to be as flexible as viper needs given a mastered understanding of it with proper practice? I believe it’s most certainly possible. and even if viper defeats viper only once out of 1000 times, then that proves the premise of the strategy being capable of taking on top opponents such as viper at the very least. Will it improve viper’s abilities overall? That is another question, and one I would be interested in, but it’s possible that anything for or against is possible.
And would future viper defeat past viper, given time, regardless of strategy, yes.

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Your strategy loses to such a wide variety of meta strats that no, it would not be possible to beat the Viper with it. Even if the Snake train specifically for this strat for one year, he would 100% not be able to beat anyone in tournament with it, probably not even high ladder.
You go up with what? 25 vills? You are literally dead to a fast up time for man at arms - archers or straight archers. If someone knows that thing is coming, he can just fast castle in your face, do a small boom with three tcs and kill you with an arbalest timing. Your build dies to fast imp even on arabia, where the strat is the weakest.

By all means, you enjoy and you are proud of your strategy, so you should have fun and play it, but you should also know that it has incredible evident weaknesses

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To note, it’s actually at its strongest on Arabia, or more preferably runestones’ generation of it. It’s great when the opponent actually attempts to raid. It’s good if not, but it’s always preferable when the opponent puts in the res and delays their timings.

That being said, yeah - a very quick fast imp is for sure hard for me to counter, but that is not a strategy flaw, it’s a flow reading and action taking flaw, a personal one.

From what I gather, it just looks like an open map variation of a lot of turtle and boom strats that have been common among beginners since at least 2003. I myself used to enjoy Korean turtling with towers/mangos on closed maps, or even trying stuff like War Wagon +Monks + Mangos or BBC in box formation on open maps, but the “coolness factor” of such things far exceeds their viability when you get even semi-competitive.

On the one hand this comes across as sort of a compliment, as those are all good things, on the other hand, it is pretty crippling to the idea that the strat itself is any good competitively, as it seems to imply that superiority in every other aspect is required to make it work. Another way of putting this is that this strat does not give you a competitive advantage; on the contrary, playing like this is a handicap outside of the lower elos.

I agree. I don’t want to be the fun police, and I think there’s the occasional place for silly strats, or focus on playstyles that work at low Elos (T90’s regular and low elo “Legends” series being good examples if you’re into that sort of thing.) But when one-tricking a variation of a common noob strat is fully the basis of your playstyle, persona, and so many of your posts, I seem to catch a whiff of spam. (Although this thread gets a pass in that regard since it was made by someone else).

Man, I feel like I just walked into an Anime scene.

He was talking about Fast Imp, which is much weaker/easier to punish on Arabia than say, Arena. And TBF if the enemy can get away unpunished going FI on an open map, he can get away with a lot of things.

Anyway, to end on a semi-positive note, I think this strat is a decent candidate for a pro troll series. I really enjoyed the few “Viper Trolls” videos he made, as it’s awesome to see a niche or meme strat executed by a master of the game. If Viper plays this strat, yes, I would watch it (hard pass on any content from someone called “Poop Lord” though). Honestly I wish Vipy would bring that series back, as getting new Mastapizzas from him would be a lot more interesting than watching him play campaigns.

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And your reason for this post is then what? An attempt at bullying? Honestly childish.

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according to the most recent video i’ve seen, 24 villagers. and some of those are already mining stone, not to mention hunting deer without a mill or tc nearby and the plethora of dark age farms.

so yeah. pretty much any normal feudal play is absolutely going to shred his strategy.

I think if Healfortress want’s his strategy to actually work (and to be frank, i don’t think the TCs around a castle will EVER work at a high level), he’s going to need to play more agro into map control and then slow the game down from there.

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At that point why would you WANT to slow the game down and give your opponent a chance to catch up? If the aggro works and cripples you enemy you should really push it and not back off so you could boom up.

I’m speaking from the perspective of Heals wanting to play defensive grind it out games at any sort of competitive level.

And i wasn’t exactly talking about crippling your opponent, go agro, get map control, keep your opponent on his side of the field, and setup behind it.

and despite his claims, Heal isn’t the originator of this strategy either. about the only thing that i could see being Originally his, is the whole TCs built around the castle thing…

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This is literally the only thing that his fine from a competitive perspective and that happens quite often

with half your food villagers?

Man, this is just negative and unproductive. We’ve been over this ground more than enough, and it’s pretty clear where people stand. Why not let this thread sink into the abyss, and hope it leaves no heirs.

I’d be fine with that until healfart comes back with a new set of threads promoting turtle bonuses. If that’s the case they come back with more garrison rehash bonuses I will say he was warned to learn to play better.

if you place turtling under a broad spectrum, sure - but the key part I’ve put in without really copying another is the teutonic healing fortress formation(29 teuts, 20 hands, 11 monks, which I updated from my previous numbers of 29,21,11, among other number variations)(and I’ve posted about it over the years under numerous accounts on different parts of the aoe 2 websites) which was the first thing I really started with, after that I started playing around with the army comps in general which is normal, the second thing was the castle and tc formations, and lastly was my version of small wall defense+ tower, which I can understand if someone else came up with that first, I’m just doing what I can to streamline my gameplay from beginning to end. the only two things I can see as mine are the formations and tc + castle formations. that being said, I didn’t take from anyone else in how I do my walls in feudal age, at least not from examples, though I did start walling my berries after I saw viper do something similar. full walls I’ve tried to stay away from, though I am considering later full or semi full stone walls atm sometime in castle age.

another part is the towers around the tc which I haven’t had out into a video yet, but that’s for special use cases, such as mass archers rushing in within feudal. that being said, I am considering more unit options such as skirms or pikes based on the situation, it will be a bit hard to figure out which ways I can improve my habits rather than fall into a bad habit even if it’s for the sake of broadening my personal ‘tech tree’ of reactionary and actionary actions based on the situation.
you could say I am being a little stagnant and I should pick up the pace of my learning it, but I’m trying to be careful to learn what makes sense perfectly rather than push myself to throw away all structure for the sake of
possibly quick progress.

another thing would be my personal hotkeys, but that’s besides the game.

Nah. What youre doing rhere with your healing a huge expensive army is not new. Heck one of the barbarossa campaigns literally gives you an army just like that, with the whole goal being smart use of your troops to cover weaknesses and conserve your army for the long haul

Furthermore towering strategically and small walls as you call them are not new either

Literally the only thing you do that i havent seen elsewhere is the castle with tcs around it.

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call it a difference of opinion then - the 29 teutonic knight, 20 hand canons, 11 monks square formation I’ve been proud of and brought up well before my castles and tc formation, years before then. the castle and tc formation is a newer addition within the recent few years. (previously 29,21,10) and tbh, I’ve yet to play much of the Barbarossa campaign. and sure, having a monk or even a good many around the same number or more may not be a new thing, but I’ve certainly streamlined the use of such for myself without much if any outside influence or copying.
I built the Teutonic healing fortress formation off of the concept of the William Wallace learning campaign’s line of defending monks, nothing else really came to mind when I went about it, I was just annoyed with losing monks and wanted to find the key numbers needed to properly defend the monks without enemy units just going right through the formation ‘walls’ or otherwise as well as to ensure the formation still had some dps even if it was unmoving.

I spent hours playing in the editor just finding the correct numbers and testing them out to get the correct formation, and when I found it, I was truly happy.
and then I went about testing it with other civs, such as the spanish with their paladins, conqs and missionaries, and incas with their kamayuks and slingers/arbs/monks or italians with their genoese crossbows, hand canons and monks - etc. I’ve had so much fun with these concepts over the last 10 or so years,it’s the reason I named my account ‘Teutonic Healing Fortress’ and only recently upon making the defensive eco a focus and starting a clan that I changed it to ‘[Heals] Teutonic Fortress’'.

The square formation was always my focus for the greater part of the decade.
I’ve held a happy child-like giddiness towards it for a long while.

as of late, it’s become a tool I use from time to time based on the situation if it calls for it, because in my experience there are times where I won’t win without it. every strategy is a tool for a certain situation, and I intend to grow this one to counter as many strategies as possible under one umbrella using multiple methods, or call it a skill tree of actions to take based on what happens if you will.
the Teutonic Healing Fortress formation has taken the sidelines, but make no mistake; it is still a valuable tool I use when it is called for.

much like a recent tool I’ve started using to counter siege engine balls -
Teutonic knights (or another tanky unit) spam the select idle military hotkey in a slight span of directions in a short distance behind the general area of the target scorpion/onager formation and repeatedly spam units to go in a hellzone grenade formation around it, and once the units have surrounded or have started to surround the siege units, snipe them with minimal damage to your units.

And how are you going to have the time to get this set up when the factor of an enemy is present against a human? Please show this working!!