Creative choices that baffle me

it has everything related as engine is the basis for mod tools and the brief menton of the state of it and evrything that gets updated and goes to mod tools.

No, it isn’t, and I’ve already explained why. Not particularly interested in going in circles.

but if dont refute and it comes in circles means that the funmdament premise of your counter argument dont hold for specific which i would guess it going towards easy to use mod tools =/= gud one but in that one the p´revious one you culd with not specialiazed knowloadge and you can make zoom in cutscenes which in aoe 4 i dont see anything of that on current tools as far asd i played.

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It doesn’t hold because you don’t want it to. That’s not an argument, that’s not a discussion.

I’ve already explained the mod tools. If you were actually interested, you’d know what they can do, and not just what they can’t. But you don’t.

or maybe because they already refute all your solid point which we went to this point you re starting to meltdown. no need to go down just link the evidence that you say its the truth and the one that counterargument. mod tool until now is too complex for the average mod toll user entusiasts.

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Some good points in this thread, skimmed most of it. Saw some talk about the engine. Just wanted to say that the replay system sucks and it’s my understanding it’s the engine’s fault and it will never be possible to have a rewind feature in replays because of how the engine works. In a game all about real time strategy, where single decisions and moments can sway the game, why would they not invest more into a replay system. There are many games these days that I can watch a replay from any 3d angle, at any speed, with full control of the camera and playback. AoE4 feels like it’s decades old lacking this fundamental feature. I have to wait 5 minutes with the replay on 8x if I want to watch something that happened at the end of a 45 minute game. And you can only see it once then you have to restart the entire replay… The engine has less tech capabilities than a VHS tape. And every time there’s a tiny update, the engine invalidates all of the old replays. That’s garbage.

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i can peacefully agree that replay system of aoe4 comes on top as the worst in the franchise, i do prefer local saving of ogs, ofc replay breaking after every single patch is just going backwards in progress, this never happened in specifically aoe2 and 3 to my knowledge (played those for close to 17 years so bits like this don’t escape me anymore)
i think tho that similarly to input latency of essence and how it does physics (namely being locked to 30 fps at all times), replay system being as is isn’t by mistake most likely
doesn’t make the engine unusable, but is imo a good area of investigation for relic

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Improvements to replays are one of the big community requests. I hope the devs are able to action this at some point.

I have no doubt it’s difficult, but I think it’d be worth it. Age IV has the interest to make it worth the investment imo.

Like I said, we’ve been over this. Games are now more complex than they were years ago. You can keep complaining that the tools are more complicated, but I don’t care anymore. You don’t care why they are, and you’re likely not even going to use them anyway.

i’d say the question isn’t if relic can patch the engine in these areas, yk the areas constantly called out by aoe community, quite a few major areas at that, but rather, how high (or low) on the priority list these potential fixes are, i think relic is aware most of these improvements would benefit their own ips as well, they certainly aren’t stupid, even if it doesn’t always look that way, my point is, there’s plenty of areas that work fine (remember aoe2 and 3 DE multiplayer services use relic’s system as basis, and that one works fine mostly)
(i don’t know if they use microsoft or relic servers, but ik they use relic’s multiplayer backend code, think you can dig that up @GorbMort ?)

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its mostly good points except for some flawed opinions asserted from a specific singular entity.

again complexity doesnt mean it have to be an adventure or a rollercoaster for the finalñ user. theres a reasom why previous mod tools wasnt too complex beside the limitation of the engine. also you dont care why it must be there and you only think is only a issue from me and not from others.

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Yes. Because games were less technically-complex. That’s the reason.

Mod tools aren’t known for their fantastic UX :sweat_smile:

I’m not denying folks find the Age IV tools complex. But other people would actually at least try to respect my explanation of why this is the case. You don’t.

In case I’m wrong, DM me. This has gone on long enough and if you do want to understand, I’m happy to explain there instead of dragging this out here.

Honestly, not sure. They have / had something called Battle Servers that we responsible for centralising / equalising ping. I believe the network model was still P2P. But the last time they mentioned these explicitly was back in 2017 or so (unless they’ve mentioned them with regards to CoH 3).

Well said! xD

Yep, true!

A fair case!

Yep! Almost everyone complained about mod UI and how difficult it is to mod everything except the maps!

AOE 1,2,3 all have extremely simple modding tools.

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AOE4’s Essense Content Editor modding tool got horrible UI
Everyone complains about it.
I myself, tried it and mode many modes, and I know they made a mess in it.
It has points where it states automatic guns etc, are clearly made for COH3, not for AOE4.
It also has comments like “armoured vehicle” “Machine Gun”, and "Bullet ############ all for WW2, etc not medieval-era words.

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I think what Gorb is missing and sadly being too assertive of, is that there are multiple ways Mod tools can manifest. Traditionally in Age games however, they were user friendly and were utilized by casual players who wanted to mess about in it–like a sandbox. This is not very feasible with the current iteration of the Editor, as though it is a complex tool and useful for more advanced modders, it offers next to none of that sandbox experience people enjoyed from past editors.

Remember, ease of access is often king with these types of things. Say instead of an Editor, Age games had a little minigame where you could “paint” over any models and thus, players were able to customize units and save them for personal use. Say it was as simple as a small scene with the loaded model and a few colours on the side for you to select and paint over with.

Now, imagine that this is what players were used to. They were used to the simplicity of going into this little scene and painting their english units with Manchester logos. Or paint the units to look like shrek, or whatever.

If in AOE4, instead of having that little simple scene that anyone in-game could click into and play with as a sandbox, Relic just gave you all the model’s files with their UVs intact and gave you free licenses to Substaince Painter so you could “mod” each model yourself, is that accessable and useful for the majority?

The answer is no. This scenario is obviously a lot more different than what has happened, but I hope you see that modding is more than people making complex scenarios, maps and minigames. The current Editor WORKS for that, albeit in a non user friendly way. What IS lost however, is the single player consumer’s ability to have that Age experience of playing in a sandbox for themselves. Sure, you CAN do it through the AOE4 Editor. After you download it. After you figure out how the extremely CONSUMER unfriendly UI works. After you learn how developer tools are used.

If you think the Editor is sufficient then you have greatly misunderstood why it is a staple in AOE games. It isn’t a staple because they were complex and clunky developer tools meant for serious modders. It was a staple because it was a great bit of single-player fun activity that you could mess with if you got bored of Campaign or Skirmish. The fact that it doubled as a useful editor was a plus.

In addition to a laughable campaign, AOE4 didn’t come with an editor originally, and when it was finally launched, it did not offer the experience single player users were looking for. There is a reason people complain about this game, and often times is because so many expectations were not met. Whether it was due to time restrictions, budgetary issues or straight up developers who didn’t understand AOE, who knows.

But, also, who cares. They missed the mark, and that is all. No reason to endlessly defend mistakes.

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Great quote!
Nailed the crucial point, where he is confused or lost

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They’ll probably actually date from CoH 2, just like CoH 2 has Dawn of War data in it.

That’s the thing about game engines. Stuff carries over. I appreciate it’s not something you understand (or have to understand), but “it’s complicated” is because what the tools are enabling us to do is complicated.

The tools have a ton of documentation that goes through and explains a lot of how to use it. “everyone” I’ve talked to finds the guides Relic write to be super-helpful.

I’m not missing that at all. But old tools aren’t necessarily “user friendly”. You still need guides, instructions, whatever. This has always been the case, even with something as famous as the mapmod tools that came with Warcraft 3.

You’re telling me this is user-friendly?

Download third-party tool from Github. Make sure you have the right software that it runs for. Learn a bunch of custom filetypes. This is just to get at the files to make changes.

Let’s look at something like editing the AI:

Sorry, this is user friendly? What does “user friendly” mean to you? In what world can you compare all of this, to a tool you can launch straight from Steam that has official developer documentation about how to use it?

The “casual experience” you’re talking about was only possible because of huge, community-driven efforts to create their own tools. To understand the custom file formats. The casual modding experience in past AoE games came from the community.

The same can happen here. It’s not a “mistake”, and so long as you characterise it as such, I will explain that you simply don’t get it. We need the advanced tools, to make the things more casual players can benefit from. There are roadblocks to something like a “sandbox” map that lets you muck about with units. We need the devs to add modding support for specific things, so that then we can enable others to do stuff.

Where would AoE III modding be without with Resource Manager? You’re telling me that the tools aren’t user friendly, and that Relic missed the mark, when the best thing older games have are third-party tools and documentation that requires you to tweak a bunch of settings before you even run the game?

This is normal for modding! But I don’t think you understand how modding works at all. I think you’ve benefited from decades of community support that enables less technical folk to tweak and mess with the game. I don’t think you understand the separation between “giving us the tools we need to modify the game” and “people creating their own”.

lol

I don’t know if you are strawmanning on purpose, or because you can’t read. If that sounds rude, it is meant to be.

AI Editing? Did you read my comment at all?

Where do you get off assuming that my comment which quoted casual users messing around in a sandbox are the same people who wants to AI edit anything?

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Because you rode in on your noble horse to participate in an existing tangent about the tools themselves and how user friendly they are.

It’s not my fault you didn’t check the context. My guess here - not a strawman - just a guess, because you’re being extremely unforthcoming about what you actually want to talk about, is you’re fixating on the lack specifically of the Scenario Editor. No other tools, no other part of the mod scene, just the Scenario Editor.

Am I right? I have an answer lined up here, but I want to make sure this assumption is somewhere near the money.

You are indeed wrong. I suspect because you failed to read my comment, which I urge you to try to do again. And instead of immediately attempting to construct a defense which always seems to be your first instinct–try to actually think about what is in the contents of it.

You strawmanned because your whole argument hinges on that modding tools is ony for modders. Yet you fail to recognize, despite me urging you to look into the past, that these tools were great bonuses that came with the game, and were great fun besides the single player campaign experience.

You won’t recognize this, ever will you?

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