Culverin needs a nerf, or make it available to every civs, OR buff springalds/bombards

As matter of a fact it’s way to efficient at killing other sieges. It kills:

  • Springalds, mangonels in 1 shot
  • Bombards in 2 shots

While requires 3 shots from springald to kill it. Keep in mind 1 Culverin costs only 2x as much as a springald.
This creates a huge siege power disparity between civs with and without Culverins.
If Culverins are properly protected which is pretty easy to, how do civs without culverins have a chance at countering it?

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HRE, Abasids has culverin

French has ROYAL culverins

English has trebuchets with area damage

Chinese sprigalds have extra hp

Rus springals have extra range

Deli can use elephant instead of regular siege, so you shouldn’t worry about culverins

Mongols??? i don’t know

Did you read the post?

We’re talking about civs WITHOUT Culverins and how to COUNTER it. The first 3 civs you mentioned comes WITH culverins (relevant?)

  • CN Springalds have extra HP, still die to culverin in 1 shot (so the extra HP is kinda irrelevant in this case)
  • Rus springalds have extra range, still takes 3 shots to kill a culverins while be killed in 1 shot.
  • Dehli has Elephant so…? Other civs have knights. Is it relevant?
  • Mongol… idk neither :person_shrugging:

Mongol and Rus have the easiest time to counter Culverins due to the extra range. How about English and the other 2 civs?

Edit: Actually to be precise, CN springalds dies in 2 culverin shots without chem, and 1 shot with chemistry upgrade. But remember you can’t supervise Clocktower anymore so in reality you can’t resupply your CT springalds fast enough vs culverins.

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They are expensive and slow.

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The culverin is fine as is. 2 springalds (same resources) can beat a culverin (even matchup) unless it is repaired with villagers. There are springalds that are really competent against culverins (China, Rus…).

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I used to struggle with Culverins before.
But I’ve come to Realise that Springalds are the most effective way to deal with them.
Infact they can hardcounter Culverins.
Its just a strange powercurve that is in reverse between Springalds vs Culverins.

Culverin are very strong against Springalds in a low-number.
But hte tables turn when you have High number culverins vs High number Springalds.

Because Culverins will do damage overcompensation against a mass of springalds.
As Range units have tendency to focus on 1 target.
2 Culverins focusing on 1 target, is essentially a waste of a Culverin.

Springalds however have 3 Advantages over Culverins:

Cost Effectiveness. (They are very cheap)
Attack Speed (They have faster firing rate than Culverins)
Mobility (They have much greater movement speed than Culverins, but most importantly, can be built on the field with Siege Engineering, Culverins can ONLY be buildt from Siege Workshop. It is far easier to apply a constant pressiure with Springalds over Culverins as you can quickly reinforce your Springald mass contra a Culverin mass)

If you are Rus and especially Mongols, you have a MAJOR advantage over Culverins and they eat up culverin in record speed. Just make sure you have a mass of them. not just 1-3. Preferably 6 or more. Because you WILL be loosing Springalds. But Loosing 1 springald vs loosing 1 culverin is a far superior trade.

Rus has 0.5 range advantage over Culverins.
Mongols ahve 1 range advantage over Culverins. but also has Imp-Siege Works, which allow them to survive 1 non-upgraded culverin shot.


:-1:you dont even know what you are talking about
It takes 3 springald shots to kill a culverin, not 2. A well micro’ed culverin can definitely kill 2 springalds easily

I think you misunderstood my text.

At no time did I say that you need 2 Springald shots to kill a culverin, I said that you needed 2 Springald to have a tight encounter (unless there are villagers to repair the culverin).

Remember that the Springald has a faster rate of fire. Greetings.

Read my reply. I think you made a moot point regardless. Greetings.

But I did not say that 2 springald shots were needed, but 2 springald and in Imperial, with the range upgrade, they have the same range as the culverin (or more if it is Mongol, Rus) or more HP if it is Chinese. The only civ with anti-siege issues in Late is Delhi.

I don’t argue that micromanaging culverin is easier than Springald.

Culverin is balanced.

And English without NOC, and CN.
Also your last sentence kinda bit itself. You said that Dehli have problem with anti siege, then concluded that culverins are balanced. Either you made another moot point or you contradicted yourself.

I agree with you that springalds need mass. But you need to remember that every civs has springalds also, and once they are mixed in with culverins it’s unbeatable on resource equality. On the contrary civs without culverins doesnt really have an answer to that. I think the easiest way to fix this is just add 0.5 range to springalds by default.

The English in Imperial is Top 1 eco and a good English player will have towers or castles for the buff + good trebs.

Just because there is a civ with siege/anti-siege problems in Imperial (because Delhi upgrades are still very slow) doesn’t mean the unit is unbalanced.

This is like when the Mongols beat the French in tournaments many times. Do you mean that the civ is unbalanced? No, but the MU is unfavorable and that always happens. Every civilization has its weaknesses.

Well and those are your personal opinions that I’d totally respect, but still have to disagree with.

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All try to explain it better…

3 civs have culverin (French, HRE, Abbasids), so they have no problem countering each other culverins

Rus has extra range, so thet have an advantage against culverin, not to mention they are cheaper

China has extra hp so even 2 clock springalds will defeat a single culverin without losing a unit, culverin could have chemestry but if chinese has siege works kind of cancel out (I’m not sure if chemestry affects bonus dmg, but even so it wouldnt 1 shoot CN springald)

English has AOE trebs, they may not have bonus againt culverins, but they have a lot of extra range that can be used to either attack the culverins or expose them to your army. And they also get their trebs kind of cheap

Deli, in imperial, replaces a lot of siege units training elephants, so culverin has no special bonus against them most of the time

Mongols apparently have extra range on their springalds, so they hit first. But I’m not 100% sure as I don’t play a lot of mongols

Every civ has something against culverins

There are a lot of incorrect numbers in this thread. I’ll only consider full upgrades in my post. Keep in mind that both units deal ranged damage and are affected by ranged armor.

This means a springald will take 172 damage from a culv shot and deal 70.

As a result a generic springald gets oneshot, Clocktower springald gets 2-shot. Meanwhile, a culv takes 4 shots to die.

However, springalds fire and move faster. That means to beat the culverins your goal has to be to get superior numbers and force the fight and keep the culverin numbers low. Try to avoid short trades.

What options do the civs have:

Rus: extra range and reduced cost on your springalds. All about getting superior numbers

Mongol: highest range and fastest springald give you a good amount of outplay potential. Also easy to get numbers due to field construction.

China: You won’t win on clocktower springalds alone. For a siege fight you’ll have to add standard springalds. However, Chinese meta is firelancer and those do very well against siege units.

English: Build trebs and snipe culverins with them. Massing springalds with attack speed buff is fine, too, but usually not required.

Delhi: You can avoid the siege fight easier and outmaneuver and snipe siege with forced march. And you get efficient production to get springald numbers up easier. But let’s face it: You’re imperial as Delhi. Not too much going for you here.

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You’re right, I missed some upgrade. Good point.

Thank you for the stats and this shows the whole point of my post, which talks about the options for trading with Culverins at range because a surround is often not possible.

How many Springalds do I need to beat culverins? I would say an average 3:1 Springs to Culverins ratio (for civ without bonus range), and prob 2.5:1 ratio for civ with bonus range (2:1 definitely won’t work).

Eg. When enemy makes 5 culverins, I would need to respond with 15 springalds to be able to trade at range. That is 45 pop and a whooping 7500 res (except Rus cheap springs) compares to the Culverin player with 15 pop and 5000 resources. Now we don’t want to turn it into who has the most number of Springalds competition, and that’s the reason why I think Culverin needs a slight nerf.

We can also achieve this by slightly buffing springalds, OR increase bombard’s range by +1 so they can soft counter culverin in number as another option.