Custom Civilizations Builder Suggestion

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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So, I know many players want, and have requested a custom civilization builder for AOE2 DE. The main issue with this have been, how do you balance it? So here I have a suggestion of how to do exactly that. Keep in mind, this system can easily be, and probably should be tweaked somewhat based on results when testing. The easiest thing to tweak being the Point Cost of things.
If this system were to be implemented, it would be best that you can have a number of premade custom civs (lets say 4) on your civ list when picking a civ in the lobby. And that the lobby host could in unranked games, choose whether to enable custom civs or not. Much the same way you can choose to hide civ choices, or to allow spectators.

Keep in mind that for this example I have only used units, techs, and bonuses that already exist within the game.

So the first thing we have to do is to give everything a cost. So here is a list of all the units and standard techs. The total cost of all standard units and techs is 266 points. Personally I’d advice “that”, as in the total cost for all standard units and techs to be the amount of points you get to play around with when making your civ. This would allow players to make an All Techs civ if they sacrifice all unique bonuses and techs, and it gives you a decent amount of points to play around with.

Here is a list of all standard units and techs, with their point cost. Team Bonuses, are separate from Unique bonuses and techs for the sake of simplicity.

On regards to civ bonuses and techs I advice the following model. Allow each player to pick a maximum of 6 Civ Bonuses, as the current standard civ (Saracens) with the largest amount of bonuses has 6.
I’m going to ignore that some Unique Techs are Castle Age while others are Imperial Age, as that complicates the system unnecessarily, and doesn’t provide a significant balance issue. You will still be locked to 2 Unique Techs as normal though.
So here we come to the more discussed part. How do we prevent people from making civs that are OP in one aspect at the sacrifice of everything else?
I’ve come up with 2 ways of countering this issue, and preferably both should be implemented:
1: All unique bonuses and techs are more expensive than the standard tech counterparts in terms of points.
2: The bonuses and techs are categorized into 9 categories. You can pick a maximum of 3 bonuses or techs within 1 category. After picking a bonus or tech in 1 category, the point cost of each new bonus or tech you add in the same category increases by 3 for each new bonus or tech you add in that category. Meaning Infantry bonus number 2 will cost +3, while Infantry bonus number 3 will cost +6.
The only exception to this being Economy bonuses, which get 2 bonuses before it starts increasing instead of 1.
The 9 categories are.
Economy
Military
Infantry
Ranged
Cavalry
Siege
Navy
Monestary
Defence

So lets take a look at each one.

If anyone of you have feedback, criticism, or suggestions of your own regarding how to make a civ builder. Feel free to share and discuss that in the comments bellow.

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All I need to know is can I build a custom civ that has paladin, stirrups, Frank hp bonus, Lithuanian relic bonus, stirrup unique tech, and farimba unique tech? Maybe throw in cuman speed bonus as well :sunglasses:

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@BoughtRelic9282

That would be a bit too many Cavalry Bonuses stacked for this model, but you could stack some of those at a great cost of points.

The point is to have the opportunity to make a civ that suits your playstyle though, so if cav is your thing, I suppose you’d have the opportunity to build with that in mind.

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@BoughtRelic9282

To give you a bit more of a detailed reply. In this model you can have a maximum of 3 unique bonuses or techs of one type, so you can only have 3 Unique Cavalry Techs or Bonuses
All the bonuses and techs you mentioned are extremely point expensive on their own for obvious reasons though, and stacking 3 of them makes them even more so.

Farimba, prevents you from getting the Paladin upgrade, so I guess that would be out of the question for you.

Frank HP doesn’t currently come with a condition. That can be tweaked easily if it proves imbalanced though.

Lithuanian relic bonus can only be gained if you have Leitis as your elite unit, as leitis is specifically mentioned in the bonus.

Cuman speed bonus is currently without an extra condition, but again that can easily be tweaked.

Stirrups are in the same position.

If you take a look through the documents it is easy to calculate what you could, and could not afford using the points available.

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You thought this through man! I like it, if you were able to stack bonuses like this it would obviously be too OP haha. Question: in a game would there be a way to see what other people pick so you know what units to expect and try to counter?

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We need custom civilization builder option ig.

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I don’t get the condition system. That you need throwing axemen to use bearded axe is a given, but why should I be forced to have chu ko nus if I want to make the ultimate scorpion civ with rocketry, or why can’t I have faster firing kipchaks with the mongol bonus because I’m forced to have mangudai?

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@BoughtRelic9282

I think being able to see the civ choices of another may have to be a thing. This is definitely a point of discussion though.
On the one hand it would be cool to have your secret custom civ build. But on the other hand players could easily get frustrated by having no clue what their opponent is good at, thus having no clue what to expect.

Currently I’m leaning towards letting people see it, just because many people may struggle otherwise.

Alternatively, you could also go for a compromise between the two, and let people see an opponents Standard Techs, Units, Unique Units/buildings, but not their Unique Bonuses or Unique Techs.
This would give them a heads up on what the opponent is packing, without completely revealing their “civ recipe”.

This may have to be tested, just to see what works, and what doesn’t though.
Definitely a good question.

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@CactusSteak2171

As I said earlier, I’ve only used Units, Techs, and Bonuses that already exist within the game for this example.
So in the case of Rocketry, and faster firing Cav Archers, Chu Co Nu and Mangudai are specifically mentioned in the bonuses.

If the developers choose to make this, that can easily be tweaked if they wish to do so. I just didn’t put it upon myself to alter any bonuses in this example.
That is a valid point though, but I do think it would have to be balance tested.

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Well, you can allow researching unique techs in scenario editor. Maybe with modifier changer (not sure about its name) you can change attack rate, hp and everything, even new created units will be effected.

On game folder there is tools_builds folder or something like that. There is AdvancedGenieEditor you can change everything.

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Actually it’s not how it works. If you give rocketry to any civ in the scenario editor then their scorpions will have more attack, regardless of whether you allow them to produce chu ko nus. The mongol bonus can be tested in a real game: if you use the Cuman UT to give your whole team kipchaks, those that your Mongol ally will receive will fire faster.

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furthermore, the tech farimba, despite specifically saying it only affects stable units, actually gives unique units that are cavalry extra attack.

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@CactusSteak2171
My point wasn’t to argue the hidden bonuses behind. I put that limitation there because it made sense to limit it to the Unique Unit it specifically mentioned in the text. If this is made, whether or not that restriction will be there will be up to the developers who make it.
This is meant as a possible model for how to make a civ builder. Not necessarily the exact recipe.

@MatCauthon3
I just checked this in game to make sure that I didn’t spread misinformation, but the Farimba bonus does not mention stables at all. It says specifically “Farimba (Cavalry +5 attack)”. So all melee based cavalry should theoretically get an effect from that bonus.

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Oh fine. Then I hope if it is implemented it won’t have too many restrictions. Actually no restriction version could be super dank but I guess some people would complain about how the enemy always create a more OP civ so puting some limits sounds good 11

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@CactusSteak2171
Yea, the main reason there have to be restrictions in such a model is to prevent things like what the first commenter on the thread warned about:

"All I need to know is can I build a custom civ that has paladin, stirrups, Frank hp bonus, Lithuanian relic bonus, stirrup unique tech, and farimba unique tech? Maybe throw in cuman speed bonus as well :sunglasses: "

The problem with things like this is that stacking too many bonuses like this will completely ruin the established balance. The main point of this is to let players make civs that fit a playstyle they like or want to try, or just to make new combinations that are interesting to play.
If you take away the restrictions you end up with a similar issue to what AOE3 had for the longest time. At least I think they fixed it now. Frank Cavalry used to be just better than everything else in the game, leading almost every online match to be a fight of frank cav vs frank cav.

I think its safe to say that when making a civ builder we want more options, and more diverse gameplay out of it. Not to be shoehorned into some ultimate combination.

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Could have sworn at one point it just said stable units. Maybe an update happened? Either way doesn’t matter anymore

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@MatCauthon3
That’s an easy mistake to make. Btw, what is your opinion on this kind of model for a Civ builder?

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something fun to mess with, nothing more then that.

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@MatCauthon3
Isn’t that why we play games to begin with? If the game wasn’t fun to mess with I don’t think I’d still been playing it after 21 years.
Preferably this should be an optional thing for unranked play, so fun is definitely what it’s aiming for.

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my point was i wouldn’t want such a system to be implemented on some ladder or something like that.

also i think some of your bonuses are overvalued or undervalued.
for example - Villagers have +5 carrying Capacity. is only 7 points, however the much more lackluster - Villagers move 10% faster. is worth 10

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