Daily reminder that Flemish Revolution is a dumb tech that shouldn't be in this game

Well flemish rev is mostly to represent the Battle of the Golden Spurs, where they defeated the french heavy cvaalry so bonus vs cavalry and even buildings have sense.
The root of the problem is when you get likw more than 100 soldiers at a time.

Stable discount is really far to be a problem, and neither Burgundian vineyards and the relic bonus aren’t the problem, is the flemish rev and getting the whole access to eco techs one age earlier, dark age hasn’t any eco tech for that reason (and was the reason of why Hunting dogs tech was removed, it made Dark age faster).
and to add, reducing the food discount just make the bonus kinda pointless.

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Those things combined with early eco techs become a problem. They get husbandry and the paladin upgrade at half the price. Gold from 43 farms (the standard) is equal to 1 extra relic, the food from relics is similar to a farm from dark age (without upgrades). Burgundians just need 2 relics, or sometimes just 1, to pump out military after flemish rev without suffering significant eco drops, considering it’s an imperial tech.

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Their relics bonus make their monasteries literally a fetoria building, this bonus need a nerf.

Before the buffs all those bonsues were pretty underwhelming.

reverting that? lol that was quite bad bonus before.

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Because before vineyards depleted all your food, and that delayed growth and recovery. Now you keep half of your food and that helps you to train villagers to maintain your eco. One of the reasons why players just basically have to prolongue the game as much as they can, then research flemish rev and overrun the enemy.

Me too. I didn’t considered it executed with siege, so I though just a few walls + defences can stop it. But with trebs or bbc behind it, it’s just too strong right now.

BTW I don’t think the upcoming nerf of the tech will make it less abnoxious. Maybe the fimp into flemish revolution less viable, but the general problem stays. It’s just too much military power you get at once.

yeah, not really. first of all it’s only 30 food per minute per relic. that isn’t a lot at all, and you can simply deny it by taking the relics yourself.

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regarding the vinchester vs villese game, vinchester (who had franks) had all 5 relics. villese killed him completely without that bonus.

according to ornlu’s patch preview the cost will even increase to 1200f and 650g and the flemish militia will no longer have bonus damage against buildings. in my eyes that’s enough of a nerf for now.

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There is 0 risk doing flemish revolution, it is actually an OP strat that can be abused, that game is a good example of it, villese recovered his economy in like 5 mins while vinchester couldn’t cause he had to relocate and move all over the edges.

Everything about burgundians is wrong, the insane economy upgrades being cheaper just put the above vikings in terms of pure boom, their gold options are beyond vikings level, OP bbc, UU, paladins, well they even have good monks and the panic button that happens to be a tremendous tech for rushing.

They have too many strong options along with strong economy and the option to turn vill sinto an efficient military force, we are not noobs anymore the average number of vills on any game is at least 120, so that is a lot of units in the field.

That’s not even a problem, honestly. Flemish Militia are slow and relatively weak per-population, and it takes a lot of them held back to defend a small number of siege, which heavily weakens the push, because it relies on a huge numbers advantage.

Every time I’ve seen a flemish militia push run into fortified walls, it’s failed, siege or not. The only reason this particular game failed wasn’t because the walls failed, it was because he bypassed the walls with the onager. And really, he should have seen that coming. He prepared for an all-in around the sides, but failed to account for the fact that flemish revolution doesn’t care about opening up your own economy to attack. If he wanted to play this right, he should have done two things; preemptively wall the middle, and build just a few siege. Net result? The revolution gets slowed down trying to squeeze through the holes in the wall, and then obliterated by the concentrated siege fire.

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I will absolutely agree that the current Burgundians eco is op. But it’s worse than that.

The previous eco bonus the Burgundians had directly encouraged a prolonged feudal age or castle age, and didn’t reward a fast imperial strategy. If you wanted to take advantage of your eco bonus, you needed to stay early; trying to rush to imp meant you effectively got no eco bonus at all.

The way they SHOULD have buffed them is by allowing them to keep their enemies in the lower ages for longer, not by allowing them to bypass the earlier ages faster and get up crazy early.

I stand by what I’ve said before; the buff they should have gotten is a change to their team bonus:

Enemy Feudal Age, Castle Age, and Imperial Age upgrades cost +10%

This directly slows down the opposition specifically in terms of aging up, thereby encouraging them to stay in the lower ages for longer, and giving the Burgundians time to shine.

welp they removed the +2 bonus damage from flemish militia against buildings

its a nerf but the tech still exist :joy::joy:

Yep, villese won because his eco recovered super fast. That’s the point of my posts. Burgs eco is too strong and has many options, as small as they are, that help them with speedy recovery in every escenario. 43 farms generating gold like 1.33 relics is small and insignificant at first glance, but it’s one of the factors that allows them to recover after flemish rev. The same thing about the food from relics. In that match, he didn’t have the relics. But just imagine if he had, his eco recovery would have been even faster. And that’s the thing, flemish rev is strong because during late imperial there is almost no drawbacks. Besides it’s just returning the bonus to its original state.

I don’t think increasing the price of the tech and leaving the true problem untouched is a good idea. But oh well, they already did. It’s going to make flemish rev to be used later (when it benefits burgs the most)
 without any nerf to their economy and fast recovery there won’t be that much of an impact imo. I could be wrong though, perhaps the price intimidates low elo players and the winrate drops.

I believe that the tech shouldcost x gold y food per vil. It’s the only way it’s ever gonnabe balanced

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Actually in EW Burgundians don’t start with any tech researched. Idk the details but the game doesn’t take into account “one age earlier” bonuses when starting at a later age. So if you start the game in feudal age Burgundians will still have to research double-bit axe and the likes, if you start in imp Burgundians will still have to research cavalier and Cumans capped rams.

As of coustilliers they don’t deserve a nerf. If anything they could nerf the stable discount, so that you can’t go both paladin and flemish rev so easily, and so that people would consider coustilliers more often, as right now going straight for Paladins is way too easy and convenient for the Burgundians.

or just make the tech unlock flemish militia and the ability to upgrade villagers at a cost.

The problem is deeper, but not how you think. The deal is that flemish rev didn’t work because it was given to a bad civ, but the second Burgundians became a good civ the tech became OP. You could give flemish rev to any S-A tier civ and guess what? As long as said civ gets all infantry upgrades it would be OP, even with bonuses different from the Burgundians one. So this thing pretty much needs to be reworked.

The problem with a gimmick like this is that it will most likely always belong to one of the following categories:

  1. It is OP and everyone hates it.
  2. It is trash and everyone hates it.

It is really hard to make such tech usefull, while not being overpowered.

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make it so that it unlocks Flemish militia and the ability to upgrade villagers into Flemish militia, at a cost.
make the tech dirt cheap.

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