yeah but im not playing treaty so its really hard to get that going
That hp can stack to even more than 2x musketeers, which means they stand much longer, dealing much more damage.
Not to mention they can switch to grenade launchers which effectively make them counter all other musketeers.
Fully upgraded ashigaru is also broken, without question.
IDK a lot of people wanted a grenadier/musketeer hybrid.
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A lot of people wanted a grenadier/musketeer hybrid as a way to make grenadiers generally more useful…not a single unique hybrid that seems better than both.
i would say the bigger problem with soldado is:
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who got it, like mexico, really?
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the implementation is kind of pretty meh.
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Yes at least a lot of unit strengths make some historical sense (sorry Portugal and Japan).
Mexico in my impression should get good skirmishers (which they already have), good cavalry (which they already have) and good outlaws (which they already have).
Why this super musketeer-grenadier hybrid then?
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I think it is how all grenadiers should be implemented in the first place, or it can be given by a card upgrade (give the grenadiers a musket with bayonet) which would be better than the grenade launcher card.
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Concordo, os grandadeiros podem e devem ficar com suas estatísticas inalteradas, mas apenas lhes de um mosquete para o ataque a distancia, o lançamento da granada pode ser reservado para o ataque de cerco e um poder especial como o crackshoot dos exploradores.
Esta seria a representação mais fidedigna possivel para o granadeiro no jogo.
This is why I don’t currently play much aoe 3. Unit stat power creep is totally out of control. I thought after carroleans devs would have learned their lessons
That was super frustrsting when they were so op released.but each espansion/civ comes with their own carrolean units in de.
Ashigaru are op but instead of fixing them we make even more op units???
European units are trash nowadays in terms of max unit stats.
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They don’t learn their lesson because for every bad thing FE does there will be entire topics dedicated to expressing love and undying support for them. It’s like millennial parents coddling their Gen Z kids.
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Caroleans have been criticized constantly and nerfed multiple times from the very beginning.
Evert design has people who like it and dislike it. This thread is to seriously talk about what I think as a design problem, and not a place for your “evil FE trying to stain our pure work of art” preaching to sneak in.
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I still do not think that its as much of a problem as people are making it out to be.
It trains slower, more coin heavy making it harder to mass and while they perform well against other musket in equal numbers, the same cannot be true when scaled up due to their lower attack per pop.
Not to mention, with their higher HP, this actually makes them more vulnerable to skirms as they are less prone to overkill. it takes 12 skirm shot without CIR to kill a vet soldados so you can just attack move kite. Normal musk can sort of overcome this by sheer force of numbers and that skrims can overkill but when your unit is 2 pop it just means you lose most of your power instantly.
like again, compare it to a highlander or even the maigadi, both of which have much better stats(even when pop is taken into account)
When you’re comparing it to highlander (a merc) and maigadi (almost a merc) which are meant to be very cost and pop efficient, far more expensive, and can only be trained from a limited number of buildings, you already see the problem.
This has not even taken into account the grenade launcher ability which essentially makes it counter other heavy infantry.
Musketeer: 150/(15*2) = 5
Soldado: 300/(15*2) = 10
Now soldado can also stack their hp to as high as 750 (I’ve seen higher). They can also gain higher speed.
Imperial musketeer with flintlock has 315 hp. Spanish musketeer with one hp card (no corselet) has 322. British and Portuguese musketeer (no thin red line) has 375. With those techs at the cost of speed they reach somewhere ~400.
With that additional hp overkill is not even a problem.
Now the only limitation is the cost and training time. But I don’t think crazy stats should even exist in this game even if very hard to achieve. And late game Mexico does not to seem to have a very bad economy to justify this.
This has not taken into account the hero priest and the explorer who can build field hospital for free following them.
BTW if having a counter = fine then there is no op unit.
Now I know you’re gonna say “you cannot get all these upgrades in one game”. Great. So why should those “upgrades you cannot get” exist in the first place?
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That’s actually less than 2 musketeers - the average musket, fully stacked, is going to hit about 360 health with about 52 damage, give or take a few points of health or damage.
What’s their price? If it comes to more than 200 combined resources for one, then they’re terribly inefficient for their stats and best used on small numbers, same as any Highlander or Fusilier.
Fully upgraded musketeer has 46 damage. As most musketeer civs have one or two damage cards that’s probably ~50. British and Portuguese can reach 56 but these are among the best.
In most games I’d say they are not as efficient as 2 musketeers for sure. This is not counting the 14 range grenade launcher attack. But I just saw a screenshot where a soldado gets ~800 hp and ~100 damage under the flag (probably with some revolution cards. I haven’t figured out).
My point is, that possibility should not even exist.
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Just so we’re clear, btw, Soldado health + attack is less than a musketeer doubled. 300 health and 36 attack - a musketeer is 150 health and 23 attack. At max, a normal musketeer will have an attack of 53, while a royal guard will have 56, with 330 health or 346 for Royal Guard units.
My estimates were a bit high, but the point remains the same - Most civs are going to have muskets with an attack of about 55, while something like a Redcoat will have an attack of 73 with cards and upgrades.
They cost 170 resources, but also have roughly the stats of 1.7 musketeer units, but still cost 2 population. This makes them super inefficient for their overall cost, and once you consider that they can only fire once per 2 pop/3 seconds while other musketeers will have twice that per pop fire rate, you realize that they’re not really that great outside extremely specific circumstances.
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But I am saying that it is a weaker version of already underwhelming units, those are limited units that are bad in most of their use cases. Now you have a slightly lesser version that doesn’t address the reason why they were bad in the first place so I still see no reason why they should be considered good.
You cited the 750 number but again note that its for a 2 pop unit. that means effectively its 375 per pop ( you can get it higher but that is due to flags and fort effects), so its a musket with the same hp as brit with lower atk, nothing revolutionary here.
That is again not insane numbers. all civs have potential insane numbers, gendarme can get about 1k hp, hakkapelit can get like 100 atk, heck even I think even naginatas can get close to 1k hp. heck it can be argued that french cdbs with their potential like 400 hp with 40 range resist is an insane stat.
And you say why should they exist? I say why not, the game isn’t built around trying to get every possible upgrades, you can make interesting builds with interesting possibilities and timing. And I don’t think this is new, things like advanced arsenal has been around for a while with lacklustre usage, people can use them to get better to insane stat but its not worth it most of the time.
Aoe 3 has elements of a card game and like most card game, its about the optimal build that you can get with the deck that you build, not the absolute min max of all stats and numbers you can get. Its like in yugioh, the biggest beatstick monster often isn’t the greatest but you can still use it if you want to.
small note about my point on skirm, its weaker towards skirms because if you attack more skirms vs muskets, you will overkill since say a group of 10 skirms will target only 1 musk, meaning that 5 of the shots are wasted and the musk can charge forward and shoot back. The same cannot be said of the soldados since the 10 shot will kill exactly one and waste nothing.
2 Likes
Now I’ve calmed down a little bit and can see it as a somehow acceptable unit in most games. I might have some OCD that makes me unable to accept even the slightest possibility of super stacked units. I was kind of annoyed seeing the many more options new civs get when I wrote this.
But I think there is something wrong with your calculation?
Normal musketeer: 23 attack
With no card: 23 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.5 + 0.15) = 49
With the 15% damage card (French): 23 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.5 + 0.15 + 0.15) = 53
British and Portuguese fully upgraded: 23 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.4 + 0.5 + 0.15 + 0.3) = 59
Spanish with unction: 49 * (1.045)^10 = 76 (now that’s another insane stats) ← this is the 73 damage you’re talking about right? Spanish, not redcoat.
Now the only poor boy left out is Russian musketeer and it has the advantage of insta-training.
EDIT: I missed paper cartridge. updated
I can see most of your points. But the major reason highlanders and maigadi are not used a lot is because of their very high cost (on one resource), and limited buildings that can train them. If they can be trained from barracks and cost 100f 100c I’d say they’ll become pretty useful. Soldado is a weaker and cheaper version (but with spread resource costs) that can be trained from an unlimited number of buildings.
I just personally dislike the philosophy of “giving 10 different upgrades on one unit but in most games you can use only 5” and the ridiculously more options for the new civs. And almost every new civ since DE has at least one design like that. I’d be okay with that only if most civs can get something similar, even if hardly achievable. I mean even true card games like yu-gi-oh constantly updates builds around old cards.
BTW gendarme is 3 pop…when it can be reduced to 2 pop and insta-trained it was insanely op.
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I think we already have that with the jeager for swedes to a certain extent (wood instead of food but I think it still works) and its still not great, mostly due to the overkilling problem. It acts as a diminishing returns on the atk stat.
I know what you mean, its sometimes a very annoying thing when you have min max brain, it feels very suckish that you can’t actually fit this thing that makes it better into the deck.
yeah but I think that was more an effect of the pop reduction, which really shows how powerful stat per pop is. Its effectively a 50% stat buff on masses of gendarme since you can get 50% more gendarmes as you would before, its a massive buff
Wood cost is probably worse than gold only I guess. Wood is scarce, slow-gathering and needed for some essential constructions.
And you’re right high damage units especially counter units like jaegers. They should better be used in small groups otherwise they will overkill. So usually 1 shipment of ~10 is good enough.
Musketeer-type units are a little different that their main purpose is to stand as long as possible.
You actually can in the case of AOE3 civs, but at the cost of almost sacrificing everything else, and give your opponent a big surprise when they failed to beat you in time, or when you are well-protected in team games.
My major problem is, some civs (especially new ones) have so many more possibilities that allow you to do this (although usually not a good idea). I think most civs should have this possibility. That’s why I always want more late-game varieties for most civs, even though they are rarely used in competitive 1v1.
What I mean is 1000 hp is fine on a 3 pop unit, but insane on a 2 pop unit.