Did camel archers post-imperial get hit too hard?

So I think we all remember the brief week or two where camel archers where almost as bad as pre-nerf Rus horse archers. I think that the following nerfs may have gone a wee bit far with regards to their endgame power. At the post imp stage they lose 60 hp, 2 armor and 13 bonus damage in exchange for 2 more bonus damage after all techs. I get that camel archers were difficult to counter between the high durability, decent damage and lack of a gold cost. In a vacuum, they’re still very good for trash units but there are some external factors to consider.

The latest siege changes negatively impacted all ranged units too - a mass of high base damage archers cant kill even springald or mangonels anymore and the latter are actually usable vs archers again via a bonus damage buff. Add that the berry nerfs screw over net amount of food Abbasid/Delhi have access to in the midgame stage and then the 180 food cost is a real issue. Currently its the universal increases to early food gathering that are kinda blurring the effects of the change - we still have enought through buffed hunts to make camel archers. The counter is that other civs have the same resources to make even more archers than before - the new camel archer keeps up with 3 archer in dps but loses hard in durability and the low range makes that a very hard thing to deal with.

Given all that, I think the camel archer is due a small boost to let it keep up with standard archer spam. I would thing something simple like a bit more base ranged armor, around 1/1/2/2. That way it can keep its weakness to horsemen, but is less vulnerable to focus fire in the early stages. Alternatively the cost can be scaled down to 120 food (180 res total) and the stats can be kept the same - the high dps can be compensation for the low range (higher risk unit).

Any thoughts?

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Tbh, i think camel archers are fine as they are.
They just need their cost to be reduced to a reasonable amount. They are far to expensive and slow-production to be worth fully 180F.

camel archers main strenght come from their supportive abilities. And the fact that camels are faster than horses for some reason when fully upgraded.

They are one of the strongest units at age4, better than handcannoner. Also, food heavy units are great in late game.

If any, they should more like nerfed than buffed for late game.

What makes them strong at age 4?

I could understand the old camel archer with 300 hp and 5/5 armor since they were basically ranged, trash maa but the current ones are made of paper.

The low range means they always take damage from ranged units in an engagement, and they no longer have the stats to tank that much archer fire. The nerfs, brought them to a similar power level as mangudai but at least those can fight knights. I’d take nerfed Rus horse archers over these because at least those can use the 6.5 range to get a critical mass and snipe xbows/handcannons where camels just run in to die.

I think that’s more due to heavy armor than horse vs camel biology. Camels were able to move a bit faster due to being lighter. That’s fine as it is. A horseman is just as fast as a camel I think.

They are already WAY stronger than horse archer and Mangudai in age4 and not even close.

Camel archer beat hand cannoner in 1v1 at age4, and prove debuff to cav, and bonus vs spear.

Before the hp nerf, Camel archer was so op that they won 1 vs 3 archer at age2.

A 1v1 outcome isnt a proof of power. 1 camel rider crushes 1 royal knight - 40 camel rider lose to 40 royal knights. 15 camels are trade badly vs 30 archers - at a critical mass archers focus down camels one by one then snowball the lead. 15 camels vs 45 archers is a slaughter.

Camel archers have no comp. Use them with spears - entire army is countered by full archers. Use them with archers, entire army is countered by full horsemen. Use them with horsemen - entire army STILL swarmed by full horsemen because the enemy has alot more units and overwhelms the cav debuff. Use them alone - entire army is countered full horsemen OR full archers. They hit spear hard - nice, but no one needs spears to beat camel based comps. Rus horse archers outrange archers. Mangudai kite horsemen to hell. The camel archer is the only unit to have hard counters in both archers and horsemen.

Camel archers never beat an equal res of archers - archers get a critical mass and use their range to focus down camel archers in age 2. Old camels got unreasonably tanky after 8 upgrades, and were broken cuz horsemen lost against them. New camels are pincushions at all ages and are properly countered by horsemen.

With fully upgrade, 40 camel rider destroy 40 royal knights.

Give mongol camel archer, and abb Mangudai. Mongol is going to be S tier without question. Camel archer is a way better unit than Mangudai.

You’re forgetting that royal knights get enlistment incentives for -25% cost. At numbers around 30, royal knights trade efficiently vs camel riders. Here’s a vid of 15 camel riders vs 20 royal knights, post imp, 3600 res on all sides.

Notice that its a very close fight already. As numbers increase, the knights’ numerical advantage scales and the charge damage becomes large enough to outright win the fight. That’s a tangent tho, camel riders smash all other cav and most ranged infantry of all other civs, I actually feel they’re a bit underrated atm.

Back to the topic at had, if mongols had camel archers they’d never make any, same as mangudai. No one has a use for a unit that can be fully countered by generic horsemen or archers. In the late game, mangudai are used pretty often in team games to demolish knight masses since Mongols can scale them alot with extra upgrades. With the cav debuff, the camel archer is a better unit in the early game but later it loses to alot of things mangudai beat. Thats why I’m fine with the weakness of the mangudai - it has one generic counter in the form of ranged units, but beats all melee units (including horsemen).

Now, I was specifically tanking about their late game power. Camel archers still have decent damage output and at late castle/early imperial you can rely on having a damage sponge line of spearmen/maa. With that in mind, why would I choose this comp over xbows and spearmen/maa? The damage output of camels may be higher vs non heavy but crossbows still do plenty of damage and are much less vulnerable while firing. With all upgrades 30 archers or 13 xbows can oneshot camel archers - these are pretty common numbers to see and mean that when camels moeve forward to support, the enemy can just pick them off with their own ranged support and now I have no reason to make these as opposed to my own archers/xbows.

Compare that to the likes of longbows - their range and attack speed tech make them the perfect counter to handcannons and their low cost lets them trade with all ranged can bar the elephant archer. Rus horse archers can do the same to a lesser degree with 6.5 range and their own speed to stay out of range of other archers. Mangudai die horribly to ranged units, even harder than camels, but they can fight any melee comp. The camel archer doesn’t really excel at any role like comparable units and as a generalist is ususally outclassed by xbows/archers.