Difference between lancer and knight?

So if Japan in the future is a playable civ. Should all civs then get a samurai type unit with different name depending on culture?

European knights are unique in the way that by the mid of 14th century plate armour was becoming more and more common. From the 15th century the knight was completetly encased in steel.

Plate armour was the best protection you could have and no other civilization even comes close to that technology.

They also had to train from the age of 7 and could become knights at age 20
Knights where trained in many different weapon types, tactics, ability to read, and to lead armies
This gives them a huge advantage to the heavy cavalry from asia and middle east

No other civilization had heavy cavalry with this extensive training

So at the moment english and HRE knights are the weakest heavy cavalry in the game. Makes absolutely no sense at all

Imagine HRE having cavalry archers wich is stronger then mongolian mangudai. Wouldnt that be absurd??

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Well samurai were the warrior nobility of Japan right? They were a social class samurai does not specify equipment, they had bows, naginatas, guns etc. So for Europeans, knights already are samurai with a different name.

I dont know if it is true that England and HRE have the worst heavy cavalry in the game I cant remember if they get any unique upgrades but if they do not they would still be on par with other civs who have no unique cav upgrades.

Ultimately though they made the choice to focus those civs in different areas. HRE are heavily infantry focused, their men-at-arms may not be called knights but by the late game their armour and weapons suggest that they are dismounted knights. The English in game also have more of an infantry and ranged focused design and the English knights were known a lot more for fighting on foot because their use of archers nessecitated a defensive block of infantry and assurances to their archers that the knights wouldent gallop away and leave them to die.

If you want to play with a focus on classic mounted knights you can play the French or possibly the Rus. Yes England and HRE had very powerful knights too but they chose to lean into other aspects of these civs to contrast them with the French.

Yeah i agree with some of the things you are saying. And yes, men-at-arms are kinda knightish but they have the wrong equipment. Dont agree with the decision of giving them 2h axe/2h mace as upgrades.

2h maces where not common in eu and most definetly not in HRE. From what i have read they where quite common in asia and they werent that big and clunky as shown on the HRE m-a-a.

After researching elite uppgrades for m-a-a they should in my opinion get halberds for the HRE. It would make sense historically and it would better represent them.

And yes, the English and HRE knights are the worst. Just baseline, no unique upgrades.

The Dehli Sultan gets +3 attack uppgrade for their lancers

Rus gets hp and attack boost

Abbasid gets the anti cavalry camels wich lowers the attack on cavalry and that kinda in a way boost their own heavy cavalry

Not sure about China. Not sure how good the fire lancer is compared to knight either.

In my opinion i think they messed up the HRE the most. Both historically and in function but thats just my opinion

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No halberds. Poleaxes would be ideal. They wouldn’t even need to change animations from two handed maces. Thought two handed maces were used in Bohemia which was part of the HRE and eastern nations like Poland Hungary etc to some degree.

Poleaxes are also a good suggestion. Maybe halberd as default and poleaxe as an upgrade to give +6 vs armoured units. Dont like the 2h axe model they are using. Looks like giant wood chopping axe i can buy from the store

If they made the 2h mace smaller it would look better but i think poleaxe is a better choice

Billhook and halberd is going into spearmen territory. Actually spears in game get kind of halberds in 4 age already.

I’m glad that by now, more and more people are seeing behind the initial facade of promised civ asymmetry and realize that at least the military aspect of the game (which is arguably one of the most substantial ones) is really underdelivering on the expectations raised by earlier promises. Same troops everywhere with 1-2 unique units for each civ is not an improvement compared to previous titles, on the contrary. I hope people will continue to raise their concerns with that trend and that eventually, the devs will have to make adjustments that are more substantial than just a cosmetic model difference and a changed name. The potential would be there, so it feels like double the slap in the face that they won’t capitalize on it (for now). Let’s hope the future can change that.

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The biggest difference is that knights of the HRE and the English are the worst in the game. Their heavy cav should never be outperformed by the likes of the Rus, the Abbasids, the Dehlis, the Mongols and the Chinese. Never ever. But in fact they are. The English and the HRE have by far the worst heavy cav in the game and it drives me actually crazy.

Civs that didn’t even knew knighthood have better knights or “Lancers” than the greatest heavy cav user in history next to the french (the HRE) and the English, who also cannot be ignored when talking about heavy cavarly. Just because of the 100 year war you cannot disregard the English cavarly as being nothing special. And the HRE was the greatest plate manufacturer of their time. How is it that their knights are baseline with nothing to offer? 2 of 3 knight civs (I do not count the Rus as a knight civ, they are not) have the worst knights in the game. That’s so crazy for me and desperately needs to be adressed by the devs. And quickly. I don’t want to wait months after release until something happens in this regard. It is unbelievable that it is how it is and needs to be changed asap. And where are the Teutonic Ritterbruders/RitterbrĂŒder? Why is that not a thing for the HRE who is lacking in everything: Their unique units suck (Prelates in military context SUCK, the Landsknecht is full on garbage), the maa have 2 weird techs that should be merged, it feels unfinished and weird, but they are actually useful. And that’s it. The rest of the HRE is baseline army evry Civ has, but without special techs, mechanics, synergies. It really is unfathomable.

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Looks more like bills to me. And spearmen should be pikemen instead

Yeah I get that there is big difference in use and impact vs armoured opponent with bill and halberd but for gameplay and readability reasons its unlikely that they will give MMA long pole weapons. So poleaxe is nice and especially historically correct solution.

Pikes are easy to distinguish from halberds and bills. Poleaxes are similar to halberd, but shorter and with hammer instead of spike so i dont think readability should be a issue and the armies would represent the time period if they had the right equipment

Problem is that pikes are more imperial age unit meant for fight in formations. It would be actually downgrade from spearman in earlies ages in small group combat.

Sadly its to late now and the devs most likely dont bother reading the forums and if they do they probably dont care beacause this is their flagship game and they know whats best.

Best we could do is to hope a future DLC will remedy some of the mistakes they made

Well. Solution is to have spearmen become pikemen in imperial age with elite upgrade.Problem solved

You dont have a problem with english m-a-a staying as a 13th century unit in imperial age?

Not really. Such units were still in use in 15 century. What’s most jarring to me is use of hand canon in imperial age in western Europe while Russians got harquebuses.

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There is no other Civ that has NO upgrades or synergies for Knights other than the English and the HRE. You could argue with inspiration for the HRE, but the mechanic is way way way inferior to the one the Warrior Monk have and the Rus also have a hp tech for their knights. The English and the HRE have THE WORST cavalry in the game. And that is ridiculous.

If you like, here is a closer look (I copied that from my other thread). Keep in mind that the HRE and the English have zero unique techs for their Cav:

Let’s compare the Civs a bit more in detail:

The Rus have the Warrior Monk who does everything the Prelate does but better. They have the Horse Archer who is a mobile raid unit that is very deadly when being massed. And then they have the Streltsy, an end of medieval age unit (it shoudln’t exist in the game) that is insanely strong, much stronger than a handgunner and can only be countered by siege or longbows. If you run in there with infantry and cav, everything will die as Streltsies counter everything. After a few secs of standing still, they get a 30% increase in damage and attack rate plus they get inspiration from warrior monks. That is by far the most deadly late game army in the game if you leave out mass artillery with the Chinese. The HRE has nothing to answer that. Nothing. Aside from all that the Rus have a very unique Navy. I dunno how strong it is, but it is hella unique. Oh yeah, and ofc all their Cav has at least 20 hp more, they have early knights that are simply better than the HRE knights


The French have extra strong knights who are also potentially the cheapest knights in the game, they have the Arbaletrier who can fight cavalry, infantry and archers due to his ridiculously high melee armor (higher than plate units!) and pavise. A jack of all trades so to speak that actually also requires you to use siege to counter effectively. They can build every Artillery unit there is in the game except for bees and most of them even come out 20% stronger if the according landmark is chosen. There is so much synergy in this army, the HRE doesn’t even exist in their world. On top of that they have a unique ship that seemed quite useful. I do not know much about it.

The Abbasids have their Camels, the best spearmen in the game and all in all a very sturdy infantry. I do not see how the HRE infantry is noticeably stronger than the abbasid infantry. They have double range spearmen, they get 1/1 armor when camels are near and they have 15% more hp. That all applies to archers as well. On top of that the Imam can single target convert enemy units without a Relic. The Abbasids thus bring a very strong infantry in combination with anti horse cavalry camels and camel archers who eat everything but especially light infantry. In addition to that, Abbasid Knights or “Lancers” are stronger than enemy knights due to the synergy with Camels.

The Dehli Sultanate have their Elephants and scholars. The Elephants can be used in every situation, are very sturdy and have a place in the game as they do fulfill a very unique role. Their army composition speaks the language of synergy as well. The melee elephants can tank and eat every cavalry, the tower elephants answer to range and are like a moving tower and their scholars seem to be marathon runners. They are so quick, they are always with the army. I do not know all the techs they have, but one tech improves knights and maa damage by 3. So their knights are also stronger than the trashy baseline knights from HRE and the English, which really does my head in, and their maa are also blessed with some love as they end up dealing 22 damage to all types. Again the HRE speciality is ONLY maa and to a minor extent spearmen (+3 melee armor, herp derp
). The HRE is just one dimensional, boring and lackluster. Just like the English. But they have at least the Longbow who does quite some work. The English have at least a special unit that is useful. The HRE doesn’t even have that.

The Mongols have so many unique mechanics, it is difficult to list them all up here. And I probably don’t even know all of them. But they have, just like the Rus and the French, early knights and the Khan that reliably boosts the army (if you look out for him) + they have defensive mechanics that allow their units to move 15% faster. And since they tend to move with their base, the 15% speed is being applied way more often than you’d think. It is save to say that the Mongol knights are better than the HRE ones. And why not? The HRE ones get nothing as I am not getting tired to point out. The Mongols are very unique mechanic wise, but do not offer many special units. There is actually only the Khan and the Mangudai that I know of. But the Mangudai is very useful and strong. I feel like this whole Civ works like a homogeneous unit. Their mobility is what gives them an edge over others because it is where all their synergies lie.

And then we have the Chinese. The defensive powerhouse with the very most number of special units and a dynasty mechanic that grants buffs on top of all their techs. They get the speedy Palace Guards, the chu-ko-nu or Zhuge nu, the Fire Lancer, the Imperial Offical (no military pupose, tho), the nest of bees, the best bombards and handgunners (except for Streltsies) in the game and Grenadiers. They have so many possibilities and by far the best artillery in the game. Their knights are either 15% faster or have 10% hp more compared to the HRE and thus have to be considered better as well. The Chinese have better knights than the HRE. What is this? This is madness. The Chinese can do so much different stuff, their mechanics reach very widely and if you compare them to the HRE, you wouldn’t even know what to compare.

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Fair points, I dont know enough about HRE history to know what they should have but for this game they have gone infantry and religion. I guess this is because their spritual predecessor the AOE2 Teutons was also a infantry and monk civ so they’ve gone the same way. I can understand that would be frustrating if you wanted them to take a different path.

This discussion seems to be heading toward balance which is very difficult for any of us to talk about just yet. My gut tells me that the French seem a lot more powerful than the HRE and possibly English but we will have to find out. Maybe we can get some more unique techs down the line in a similar manner to when The Forgotten expansion gave every civ a new unique tech.

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