Do infantry UUs need balance?

i completely disagree

whens the last time you saw any of these made in a tournament game?

whens the last time you saw GOTHS actually used in a tournament game?

now i want to ask you another question.
when was the last time you saw an infantry civilization used in a tournament where INFANTRY was the primary unit used by the person playing that game?
yeah. aztecs and incans see some use.

yeah you see celts, japs, and vikings used in games frequently.
and they always go water + xbows/arbs.
never infantry.

the most commonly seen infantry in aoe2 tournament games are pikes and eagles.

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I donā€™t know that thatā€™s a fair assessment of utility. Infantry, as a rule, fill a specific niche. Unique units do not need to make up the bulk of players armies in order to be considered balanced.

Honestly, if a civilizations unique unit is being used that much, I find it likely to be overpowered.

There are several infantry unique units which are perfectly balanced, or perhaps even slightly over tuned, as they currently stand. Berserks for example. Huscarls are also not unbalanced, it is the civilization that needs help more so than the unique unit.

The primary tweak which I think most people could agree on, is the fact that the new supplies Tech has, to a certain extent, devalued infantry units when compared to the champion line. This is felt most strongly with the Teutons, in combination with the recent armor upgrade , this has left their unique unit more expensive and less useful by comparison.

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In NAC 3 Hera refused to make Jags to fight Berserks and teched into Champs instead. God did he got his behind wooped hard.

They never did and arenā€™t meant to (and anyway, why would you get supplies as Ethiopian besides defending vs eagles without a castle?. However they are unparalleled as raiders. I had a Spanish vs Ethiopian game where I was attempting to raze the enemy base with them, and even tho I was using them in the worst ways possible, I would just click his villies at the last second and kill most of them. The enemy had to gg because my (castle age) shotels would kill his villies faster than his castle and conqs could kill them.

Used to be OP. I have no idea of where they stand right now. But anyway Forced levy+Supplies 2H are 5 food more expensive than they used too. Not a big deal, but it shows Supplies arenā€™t the problem.

If Hera didnā€™t insist on playing the Meta he would have done jags. Samurai haev been used too in HC3 if I remember well (thx auto Japanese pick maps!) and Condotierri if I remember well are usable on Arena.

They are usable in team games. And if Goths arenā€™t popular itā€™s clearly not because of their UU.

I feel like in DE people started being more open using infantry.

Wrong (especially for Celts)

Indeed. I feel that people favour the UU other its generic counterpart too much. For instance before this patch people would cry about Kipchaks feeling too weak and yet they would refuse to do normal CA as Cuman, as if lacking one tech was enough to counterract the fact they were literally spawned 5 times as fast (something dumb like 5 in-game seconds)

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its not even just unique units. the majority of a time when an infantry civ is used in tournaments, they are used for their eco bonus, their navy, or some combo of both. when was the last time you saw an infantry civ used, where their infantry was the core part of their gameplay?

show me celts being used, where infantry is the core of the gameplay.

Elite Huskarl IMO should get 1 meele armor. Make it hold up better against Champs or other infantry. The unit carries around a shieldā€¦

Thatā€™s my whole point. Infantry fills a specific purpose, one which is not generally as the bulk of an army.

Look at the champion. What is its purpose? It is not to be the bulk of the army, but rather to serve as an all-purpose unit which has no trash counters. By building Champions, you force your enemy to expend a greater amount of gold in order to counter you. But even in this situation, where the champion is optimally used, the champion is not the end game of the situation. By forcing your enemy to use gold units, they have achieved their purpose , and the game can progress.

Something you might be missing is the fact that many parts of the game do not need to be actively used in order to have an impact on gameplay. This is especially true in tournaments, as the highest echelons of player is able to effectively predict the response to Any Given action. For example, a high-level player would be unlikely to produce a melee unique unit when playing against the Japanese , because they know that Samurai would effectively counter them. In response, the Japanese player never actually needs to produce the Samurai in the first place, but nonetheless, they have fulfilled their purpose.

maybe this is a misunderstanding. my point was, they are balanced compared to the champion line, without supplies throwing that off, my point was not, that infantry as a whole is balanced. champions are rarely made in a competetive setting, but yea itā€™s kinda infantry as a whole thatā€™s a bit underpowered, so if you wanna balance that, make infantry as a whole stronger and not just all the unique units. Supplies is a good start, but maybe the impact isnt big enough.

About goths, they were actually banned from hidden cup 3 because they supposedly would have been OP

and yea, eagles are still very viable most of the time, which i attribute to their high movement speed and pierce armor. so maybe all infantry should just get a slight speed to those attributes, or maybe itā€™s just melee pathing that needs a rework which would fix infantry as a side effectā€¦

An example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbkhs4lMRq8&t=820s
Yes itā€™s Viper vs a weaker player. But bear in mind that was when Saracen had OP building-melting archers in Feudal age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIaaKrKKg4 A Goth vs Teutons match (before the February patch) The Teuton player started with Archers and Knights, but then transitioned to Swordsmen and won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZbIqiUfmY Infantry on both sides

Some more:


Mass Men-at arm winning against all-in agression

The focus of the casting is on all the TC shenanigans, but you can easily see that The Max goes for full swordsmen right from the start.

the problem with this thought process is it leaves many infantry civs high and dry. how many infantry civs are actually considered good? look at goths. they are so one dimensional that your idea of what is right leads to them being arguably the weakest civilization in the game.

they were op because the dark age bonus, which rightfully lead to there ban. how are they without the dark age bonus?

its viper vs a weak player. viper can literally do whatever he wants. like when he goes port with Orjan guns, or uses war elephants as persions.

his long swords came in during trash time, 37 minutes into a 45 minute game where he had choked his opponent off with archers and then continued the contain with knights. of course he could use long swords, he was MILES AHEAD.

yeah. Nicov used a standard drush into longswords and got wrecked. what infantry did MBL use? woads and pikes. 2 of the most commonly used infantry in the game. hardly a good example of infantry seeing common useage.

and are you seriously using a 3v3 game as an argument for balance?

come on man.

in all of those videos you have 1 good example, and that was as celts, the one who has the absolute most stuff to back up their infantry (siege and paladins).

Woads donā€™t die to Halbs and can destroy TCā€™s.

I think that goths are the exception, not the rule. They are definitely one-dimensional, but most infantry civilisations or not. Japanese, for example.

Donā€™t get me wrong, I definitely think that some of the unique unit Infantry could use some upwards tweaking. I just donā€™t think that full spam, a-la Mayan plumed Archer spam, is the optimal point to shoot for. It is perfectly acceptable for a unique units to serve a smaller, Niche role in a larger, more complicated Army.

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Did you get to just try those archers before they got patched?

You literally said that infantry is never used. Will you blame the dude for using a unit fit to the situation?

But then why did he used them? Do you think he choses losing strats on purpose?

You asked me for a Celt game where infantry was the core of gameplay.

The kind of settings where gold is infinite and thus infantry have no more the advantage of being cheaper gold-wise. And yet they are still usable.

Iā€™m all ready to hear where will you get enough ressources to upgrade the 3 units line at once (especially knowing how bad Celts paladin are) And if you really think infantry needs cav and siege to work, then we have:
Teuton: FU Champion, +1 armor, Ironclad siege, Paladin
Saracen: FU Champion, Mameluke, Zealotry camels, full siege (- heavy scorpion)
Slavs: FU Champion, Druzina, full siege workshop (- BBC) + discount on siege units + Boyars
Malians: Champskarls, Farimba Cavalier, Siege Onager
Burmese: FU Champ + 3 attack, Battle Ele, BBC
Bulgarian: Bagain 2H, Konniks, Paladin, Full siege worskshop (-BBC)
Cuman: FU Champion, Paladin, Siege Ram/Onager
Ie. according to this logic even non-infantry civ can have this favourable combination.

the point was infantry being used as the core of the army and strategy. that didnā€™t happen in that game. they came in at the end of the game, against an overwhelmed and cornered opponent who had been contained since the beginning.

because maybe heā€™s trying new things to see if they work. clearly it didnā€™t work.

and yet the game isnā€™t balanced around team games.

no. my point is celts are actually a legitimately strong civilization. do they see the use that mongols or persians see? no. but they are arguably top 3 infantry civs in use. its not about needing all 3. its about having options outside the infantry that are good and worth it. show me an infantry civ with good other options and they are used in tournaments. celts, japanese, aztecs, and slavs are all good examples of this. but how often do you see their infantry actually used? rarely. except aztecs and then they focus mostly on pikes/eages and arbs.

yet no one uses them, because there units are slow and their archers are laughable.

saracens need some love.

farmers into knights. no one plays slavs for infantry. they do it because farms + knights.

Without the dark age bonus, theyre low mid to low tier, but they still have a dark age bonus right now

no they donā€™t. it got patched.

It got patched down to 20%. Which is less than it was before, but more than the 0% they have had since time immemorial.