Do Native Americans need a new trash unit?

Basically a unit that replaces the Hussar. Cost 80 food for the Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, etc. To compensate them for their lack of hussar in trash wars.

How about a really weak infantry unit? Perhaps a unit that narrowly beats a generic halberdier, or a generic elite skirmisher in a 1v1 fight. But loses to a Hussar in a 1v1 fight. Has heavy food cost, costs 80 food. A Japanese/teuton halberdier would beat them.

I seen players complaining (gold hungry civs) these civs are weak (in trash wars) due to gold being so costly. All they have is halbs and skirmishers in trash wars.

EDIT: And perhaps they need to unlock this unit by researching a tech? Instead of just getting it for free.

How would a really weak infantry unit replace light cav? maybe if the infantry unit was on rollerblades it would work xD

without rollerblades, i think most people would still go for halbs.

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An eagle scout that only costs food, but is much weaker? Than the gold version.

Trash archer? Or some sort of trash unit.

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I think the problem with meso civs is their lack of mobility. Adding a unit like the eagle that’s a bit faster and a bit weaker wouldn’t be so bad. Maybe a llama riding eagle? apparently llamas are as fast as camels, so that’s something. it would look funny though.

or a tech that reduces the gold cost of eagles by switching the costs to 50f 20g instead of 20f 50g?

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Why though?
Why do you guys want to create a flat line that applies all civs? Diversity please. It’s okay to weak at the very latter stage of the game. Relax.
Diversity is the absolute key component of strategy.

**Another post that asks to fill holes in civ’s tech tree.


Aztecs are already a civ that is commonly picked for any open map, while also being quite strong on closed maps, Mayans are already too OP in 1v1 and TGs, Incas just need a new bonus to be on line with the others and replacing the lame TB (Barrack techs cost 33% less and Infantry +2 LOS as TB), also, the Eagle Warrior as an unit is currently too strong, noone of the mesos need another trash option.

I don’t think eagles are that strong, they die very easily to cav and infantry. They are good once full upgraded, but they’re not THAT good. Kamayuks on the other hand are very good.

also no one is saying to change anything, it’s just fun to talk about the game : D

Eagles cost 20F, Which means they can be easily massed since feudal age with like just 5-6 farms while scouts need at least 18, on of that they are fast and can just ignore their main (soft) counter, which is the militia line (whose buffs barely changed anything about meso dominance on arabia), that’s why both aztecs and esp Mayans are soo strong on arabia.
Knights need a larger number to be ever effective vs eagles, and Knights are more expensive by a massive margin.
Also look at this, Cavalry and Archers get trash counters, while infantry don’t.

they can be easily massed but in Feudal Age they take a really long time to create, so scouts would be a better choice anyway. In Feudal age eagle scout vs scout cav, i’m pretty sure the scouts would win. i’m gonna test this out xD (Scenario : 5 eagle scouts vs 5 generic scout cav, scout cav won with 4 scouts left - Castle age: 12 Eagle warriors vs 6 generic knights, 4 knights left)

One time I sent 12 eagle warriors against 4 or 5 knights and all my eagles died and i didn’t kill a single knight. Just saying. Against archers they’re good and to raid under TCs.

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Eagles not getting a trash counter is more than made up on how hard the militia line smashes them. Like seriously even a Tatar two handed swordsman can beat an el dorado eagle, that’s just nut 11

As of the OP mesos don’t really need a third trash unit. Like if Turks can manage with 1 trash unit mesos can manage with 2.

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So you want to give them a trash unit for the sake of giving them a trash unit?

On the other hand, I want Hussars to cost 75F 5G, so Hussar spam becomes less common

With bottomed market prices that would effectively mean 105F for civs with Guilds, 111F for other civs, 102F for Saracens, 88F for Berbers and 97F for Magyars. Burgundians would be the best Hussar-spam (just the spam aspect) civ, not even needing the market with enough farms.
But how would you do that? 5G even for scouts and light cav? 5G tied with the Hussar upgrade?

I can tell you how i would do that. I wouldn’t do that, it’s quite simple.


I think it’s fine the way it is. Different Civs have different power-curves and I’m fine with Meso-Civs being a bit overpowered early-mid game but then suffer in lategame.
Argueably Incas may need some sort of new bonus, as they aren’t quite as strong as Mayans or Aztecs. Maybe a good/useful Teambonus would suffice.

this is not true, it’s very easy to mix in Monks as any Meso civ, leaving the only true (soft) counter to Eagles in the Longsword. In early Castle Age, 1-2 conversions of a Knight can decide the outcome of the game due to the high price of an individual Knight. Hell, even in late Castle Age, a group of 8-10 Monks can be comfortably micro’d vs 20+ Knights as you Patrol your Eagles/Pikemen in.

Oh yes, from Barracks you can mix in Pikemen to complement the Eagles, if you don’t feel like doing Monks, which not only come from the same building which saves you wood, but also benefit from same Blacksmith upgrates. You can basically say it’s not even a tech transition given how easy it is to add Pikeman to your Eagle flood.

I think you never played vs a well-executed Eagle flood, to beat it you pretty much have to hope you have a good map AND you walled the critical parts with houses/stone walls early (Eagles munch through Palisades), OR you have to hope the Aztec/Mayan player slips in micro. Often a combination of both. Technically if he micros every single Eagle Warrior to capture your Monks, Mangonels etc. he wins 100% of the time because the only counter that you can make to Eagles is Knights and those get converted, Longswords can only camp below TC to prevent him running through your eco, you cannot chase him because Eagles are faster and also Mayan/Aztec player normally does Archers in Feudal Age so he probably has like 5-10 Crossbowmen, with only +1 attack sure because it’s uncommon to do Bodkin but he will do it if he sees you are REALLY all-in on Longswords, or he can just add his own Longswords and at that point you sure hope you are a civ with Supplies or better infantry (Bulgarians, Teutons etc.) because Meso normally also gathers resources faster so if you trade 1 Longsword for 1 as the defender it’s generally not very good.

In fact, in my top 5 list of broken things about the game, if we exclude the absolutely obvious ones like Sicilian damage resistance giving them top 3 best Skirms in the game (probably unintended) and too strong Knight-line, if we exclude also Flemish Revolution and niche cases like Bohemians being too strong on Arena, then my top 5 issues with the game atm would be:

  • Burgundian early eco upgrades AND discount make them a bit too good, it’s very common to kill 2-3 vills in Feudal vs a Burgundians player and see yourself be still behind in Castle age in eco and army numbers because he gathered that many more resources (wood especially I reckon before opponent hits Castle Age, Burgundians have +500 wood differential at least)

  • 3 Pierce armor in Castle Age is a bit broken on any unit really because it means that a FU TC does 2 damage per arrow, ideally something like Eagle Warriors would have 2.5 pierce armor but we allow only integer numbers so oh well. Turk and Indian Light cav are also insanely strong at running below TC, and regardless of losses, idling eco so hard that often it’s hard to recover but at least those 2 civs have a more awkward tech tree than Meso (Indians has no Arbalest or Knight-line, and Turks no trash units)

  • Stacking 30+ archers into 2 tiles of space by patrolling them is too strong vs civs with bad Skirmishers/ranged units (e.g. Burmese, Bulgarians). But also in general when you play something like Britons.

  • Cuman 2 TC doesn’t rly make sense design-wise, it’s either a super hard win-more or auto-loss. In Feudal on Arabia-like maps it plays very weirdly in that if you don’t idle the Cuman eco enough, you can’t win. And often idling the eco is not possible due to how quickwalls work. Which basically means that the ONLY way to punish 20 pop 2 TC boom is to do some super fast MAA, pre-mill Drush or straight 21 pop Archers and hope to find damage on the villagers building the TC. This is also not always possible because opponent can shuffle low HP vills to old TC and you won’t get Fletching right away.

  • Khmer houses are a bit stupid in how they work when you join that with their FC with no buildings potential. I am not against Khmer villagers hiding in houses, I think in principle that’s a cool idea, however there should be some form of disadvantage that doesn’t allow you to house hop from 1 house to another while enemy MAA break them. Perhaps villagers could take HP damage if the house starts burning or something. It’s also not uncommon to find 0 damage vs Khmer with a Drush because they can take all your Militia HP and then hop into a house with 1 HP. I’m fine with Khmer being strong vs Feudal aggression but not THIS strong.

Usually, I would agree with this. But the lack of different infantry roles always bothers me, and another cheap unit isn’t a bad idea, just misplaced.

TBH the thing that mesos miss the hussar line just annoys me when playing them.
It’s such an important tool in the lategame and part of that trash unit counter triangle…

This also leads to the weird design of the eagle which is then doomed to replace both lines, the scout and knight line. Which leads to only one unit really “countering” it (for most civs until late imp where it also only plays a lesser role because of it’s insane gold cost).

Hussar is borderline OP, in late game it basically behaves like a Gold unit. It trades very well vs Champion on top of having very strong mobility which the Champion doesn’t have. It feels like the Champion should be the “trash killer” but good luck countering Hussar flood if you are using solely Champion.

Hussar might need a nerf but I’m not sure what because Light Cav is fairly balanced in Castle Age (but still fairly strong in Imperial even if you are not a Hussar Civ but have FU Light Cav such as Chinese or Sicilians). Mobility for no gold cost and the ability to melt Villagers so easily makes them very strong.

Arguably one can always full Stone Wall on Arabia-like maps, which is the counter to Hussar raids, but that’s considered a bit unsportsmanlike and toxic I reckon. Furthermore as the game progresses, you need to take external woodlines and you can never wall those.