So as I said, after our discussions I’ve come to the conclusion that having at least two “Teutonic” civilisations - Dutch and Germans (+ maybe Swiss) - would be more appropriated to the actual game than my initial suggestion of 6 civs which, despite their cool medieval sounding names, would be better suited to some eurocentric game rather than AoE IV.
These new suggestions are more based upon gameplay than history and aren’t very accurate to this regard, but concessions have to be made unfortunately.
Dutch would represent both the Low Frankish cultures of the Low Countries and the Hanseatic North of the HRE, which means mainly (the descendants of) Salian Franks and to some extent continental Low Saxons (related Frisians could have a place in it too).
Having Saxons encompassed in a civilisation named Dutch may sound weird but there are actually strong cultural and linguistical ties between Dutch/Low Franconians and Low Saxons. Both languages belong to the Low German language family.
In terms of gameplay, this civilisation would be turned towards trade, sea and infantry. They would get a good artillery in Imperial Age. They may also have a special trade-related building providing some function, such as Waaghuis (weighhouse).
Unique units: Communal Militiaman, a heavy well armored infantryman armed with the famous Flemish weapon goedendag, which would well portray the power of the Flemish cities and their militias. ArmedCog, basically an armed merchant ship typical of the Hanseatic League.
Wonder: Ridderzaal of The Hague, a nice and old example of Dutch Brick Gothic which was originally the manorial hall of Floris V (1256–1296), count of Holland and Zeeland. Its name means “Hall of Knights”.
Castle:
Either the keep of Doornenburg castle as it is given how well suited it is for a AoE castle (left) or a castle based upon Muiden Castle/Muiderslot, the most famous Dutch medieval castle (right).
Germans would be mostly based upon High German area, which makes a bit of sense as modern Standard German comes from High German languages. They would be pretty close to AoE II Teutons in their design.
When it comes to gameplay, they would specialize in agriculture and heavy cavalry, thus being much more of a traditional knightly civ than the Dutch although they would share with a them some impressive artillery.
Unique unit: Teutonic Knight. Heavy armored cavalry unit, powerful but rather slow. Either in 13th-14th century equipment (left) or early 15th century one (right), Teutonic knights being most known in those two styles.
Attributing this unit to Germans only isn’t accurate as Dutch, Saxons and most of Swiss were Teutonic too but concessions have to me made.
Wonder: Limburg Cathedral in Hesse. Built in the first half of the 13th century in a transitional Romanesque-Gothic style common in Germany. A very striking building which would look awesome in AoE.
Castle:
A mix of Eltz (left) and Marksburg (right) castles, both very famous and representative of these German castles looking more like huge fortified noble households than proper fortresses.
Architecture:
Castle and Imperial ages: a mix of white lime-coated and painted walls and bare dark stones. Such style is found all across modern-day Germany and especially common in Rhineland. Painting over the coating would adapt to the player’s color.
Swiss’ main point to be in the game would be to portray an Alpine civilisation rather than a Southern Teutonic one, all the more as not all Swiss were Germanic speakers. I preferred them over Austrians/Bavarians because they are a bit more differenciated than inner Germans and also have a readily found unique unit.
I can see them with a cliché montainous gameplay, i.e. economy focused on pastoralism and logging, efficient infantry, etc.
Wonder: Basel Cathedral. That way the beautiful pink sandstone architecture would have a place in the game. As a wonder, the fact that it differs from the rest of the architectural set isn’t too problematic.
I see that actually working out, BUT then again, these 2 civs (and even if you include the 2 others) seem to portray a VERY small part of western europe at first. However if you then like me remember, english and probably franks also have a space…
Questions arise for me though, maybe you can elaborate. befor that though, I lOVE your description of german castles xD
What is about all the nations east of nowadays germany? lets say there are Rus to the far east and then germans. which nations would be inbetween in medieval times? could they also be combined to 1 civ? or would they also have to be split?
As a German, the German word for our countrymen only exists since a few hundred years (German= Deutsch/ Deutsche) However, there is also the german word “Germanen”, which probably would be Germanics? Question here is, is the english term “German” correct for this portion of land and ppl?
-Also, WHAT would be the campaign of these 2 civs you proclaim? How did their empire grow? Into what? That would interest me especially for dutch - because I doubt if there are only 8 civs, they wont be featured in campaigns. England and France do have quite old and acknowledged history, but German and Dutch?
Last but not least, It seems well established by now that according to LEAKS, the HRE is a Civ. If it is, shouldnt at least germans (I assume durch were too, but I dont know) be part of that? There was the “HRE of german nation” (hl. römisches Reich deutscher Nation), after all.
Which brings me back to my idea/theory of how HRE might work. Similar to china in that there are multiple cultures within, with different trait. So you can go the the HRE of german nation, or of any other nation. However, sadly I do not believe that HRE would have all the beautiful castles you displayed as Landmarks, or specific traits, since another defensive structure oriented civ is unlikely.
But maybe HRE will have access to each playstyle, therefore the German Landmarks and Dutch landmarks may both provide defensive playstyles.
We will have to wait and see, but i would lik ethe Idea of your castle choices being included, yet do not believe 2 more smaller western nations would be added.
Wow, i really like your posts. So much information in a good ordered way
I would agree with your suggestion overall. But maybe not with the names. I think dutch might be to modern and the Low Lands or the Hanse would be better. But it is difficult finding a name for a entity that didn’t exist in this way Traders of the Baltic and Northern Sea would be most accurate but bulky at the same time.
The Germans is misleading to, i think and I would suggest HRE as the name for them. Additionally to the heavy knights, which I think is the ost fitting unit for them, I want to sea a specialisation on monks. Maybe something like the Feitoria for the Portugese in AoE2. Cloisters were powerful economic centers. Thinking of the Delhi Sultanate the monks could be helpful researching technologies.
I am no so sure you can safely “reduce” the HRE to the german part. However if its HRE of german nation, it would be fitting, yet the name bulky again, and I dont think HREoGN is commonly used
My suggestion for this would be: Kingdom of Bohemia. Strong mixture of german and slavic elements. But I think europe shouldn’t be overrepresented and other continents should be considered first
Dutch: Rise of the Hanse or alternatively FIght for Independence of the flemish and dutch city states
Germans: Fight against Magyar or viking intruders
The gameplay of the HRE could be similiar to the bulgariens from AOE2 in my opinion. A lot of single castles shattered around the country. This describes the regions of south and southwest germany pretty good
yes, I also think there shouldnt be too much european nations, which is why I prefer broader spectrums for each civ - because of the assymetric civs its unlikely we get so much detail So I would feel it “unfair” if tehre were “holes” in civs, like the one I referred to.
And regarding HRE gameplay- my problem with that is that the HRE wasnt really knwon for the german castles specifically, at leasat I think its that way, but I might be wring
Germans fought vikings? Well to me those seem to be scenario games at most, compared to the english campaing that was teased. Which is why I wouldnt believe these to be added.
Oh you are right. The British campaign deals already with the vikings. All of europe was raided by the vikings in the early middle ages, so this is somewhat generic But if I did understand them right there will be a campaign through the middle ages based on different rulers. Respecting this there could be a Karl Martell campaign fighting the muslim conquerers invading spain and france, then the Charlemagne chapter and then a division into a france and HRE campaign (both fighting the vikings :P)
Rather important events for the HRE were the fights with the popes in Rome, conquering North Italy or the fights with the Hussits (this event is now in fashion and I personally think it is used to much in books and games)
Im intrigued now. Always thought france was the only western country besides england (and all of these isles inc scotland) that was raided. Must be the netflix series´ fault
Although as a german I also never heard any (hi)story of a viking invasion on west european lands anyway. It makes sense though xD
yes, from what I got the english campaign for example will begin with one ruler, but then follow the others till the empire is completed (or the campaign is over xD)
In any case, it will be very interesting
I know of the important events either from Age 2 or history, but tbh, I am too few into the topic to have detailed thoughts about them maybe being in age.
I mean, the holy crusades probably would also be a part of any Western european campaign, I guess.
VERY many options for the devs to consider so I can not wait to find out what will happen.
With teutons or whatever they will be called^^
I often agree with you, but not with the choice of Special unit of your High german people and also not with the choice as High German or Middle German people, as you want to call it.
The Teutonic knight does not fit at all with the middle Germans themselves but with the Teutonic order, which i have already suggested as a further civilization. Another specialization would be suitable for your proposed High german people, but not in riding. In any case, the choice of this Name is historically wrong. The coat of arms that the knight bears, stands for the State of the Teutonic order and not for any small Principality in the German homecountry. Please correct this and choose another unit. If you do not that, then you are plain historically wrong about it.
You must also not forget, that the German Empire was only founded in 1871. In the middle ages they were all subordinate to small Principalities from north to south. After that, they were divided into Prussia and Austria. Prussia as a State was the successor to the Teutonic/German order. Therefore your proposed 1 german nation make no sense and they are also historically wrong. In this area was never present a political Middle german state. You can also not justify such a State with the argument of a compromise. Then you prefer to display 1 or more smaller or bigger German Principalities correctly, for me it would also be possible 6 Principalities, in contrast to your critics here, as you wanted from the beginning.
Apart from that, the Teutonic order or even called German order perfectly fills the gap between Western europe, Central europe and Eastern europe in order to introduce it as an bigger, additional Civilization in an extension.
It feels like an Age2 civ design, whereas Age4 civs are going to be drastically different from eachother. Can you ensure that these two civs will play drastically different from eachother? And they will need more than 1-2 unique units
It is certainly interesting, and, I think, useful to compare the community’s reaction to the badly named/badly defined civs that we might see in AoE IV.
Teutons/HRE population at 1500: 23 millions → too big and unstable. Civ name would be too much of an umbrella. Increasing coverage of the term (such as also incorporating the french/franks) is out of the question. A part of the community would prefer this be broken down into smaller civs to properly represent the diversity of the region, others are worried that doing so would break the philosophy of the game needing civs be very differentiated from each other.
Delhi Sultanate population at 1500: 20-55 millions → too specific and unstable (just look at the fluctuating population number). Renaming (such as to Hindustanis) is proposed but subdividing the civ is inconceivable. A part of the community would rather see the civ become even more general by naming it Indians than have the term exists as it is now, some argued against this saying that they don’t want the situation in AoE II.
How can we consolidate the two arguments? Does the argument about unity holds for both inclinations (i.e. delhi sultanate is more unified than HRE and thus the former can’t be divided while the latter can be)? Would the devs end up choosing the middle path: Delhi Sultanate and HRE (or some renaming like Hindustanis and Teutons) as two civs like the rumors say?
I think there was a thread elsewhere regariding a screeenshot seeemingly showing HRE in the civ select screen. From what I remember, only Rus was another Civ, but I am sure that 2 others were also named. Maybe if you seaarch for either of HRE or RUS or both, you might find the comment?
well at least Delhi sultanate is not a rumor atm, maybe they will rename that though.
Not sure regarding HRE since that wasnt really confirmed as a cibv yet…
However you do state the 2 pages of the arguments very well in a nutshell. This is MS task to decide, and I assume they did already have theinformation they needed for a decision. but maybe the discussion in the forums shows them they might need to ask another round of testers. we will see.
I am however sure that if the name is problematic for ppl, a simple mod will be done very fast renaming them
I feel like this could be said about any pre-Industrial empire. Empires were created for the economic bonuses and safety. Cultural influences like language came after.
Traders of the Baltic and Northern Sea would be most accurate but bulky at the same time.
Well to me those seem to be scenario games at most, compared to the english campaing that was teased. Which is why I wouldnt believe these to be added.
