I agree with @AbledManatee867 Dravidian already have one of the best Halb/skirm. They also have access to 80HP armor-ignoring Light cav would be too much. They already great in post-imp that is not an issue. The issue is more of the castle age weakness with lacking knight.
Besides, they picked quite sometimes in RBW and some of later match in Wallhalla, I am not sure they really need some significant buff. I think only Castle age knight is Okay but not sure it will hurt Indian civs’ identity.
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In 1v1s, dravidians have an excellent feudal, with the extra wood, cheaper m@a, and faster firing skirms. But their castle age is one of the worst. This is reflected in the stats. But unlike other civs which have a weak middle (Khmer, Burgundians, Goths, Incas, Italians, etc), it doesn’t go up enough in Imperial age to compensate.
For all the people complaining about Wootz steel on cavalry, they can just make it an infantry only tech. That wouldn’t be a huge nerf. The main issue is the lack of a raiding unit, coupled with lack of any major defensive bonuses.
In early castle age, you have to protect your vils without compromising their work time, or raid your opponent to make sure they lose an equal number too. A third option is to have a major eco bonus such that even if you lose a few vils, your economy can take it. Dravidians lack all of these options on land maps. Your eco is weak (dravidians don’t get stone and gold shaft mining, they also lack crop rotation), you can’t raid them effectively, and even if you raid with crossbows and god forbid, EAs, they can raid you back quite easily.
Also, can we talk about how garbage EAs are(in castle age)?
They are weak to both spear line and skirmishers, they are slow and cannot avoid them like knights can, they are more expensive than knights, have lower dps, and die to knights. To make things worse, even if you increase their damage, knights can just run away and not take the fight. You’ll see that while almost everyone uses knights in castle age, while almost nobody uses EAs. Population efficiency is the biggest advantage of EAs, but that doesn’t matter at all in castle age.
The devs have decided not to give Indian civs knights for some reason. Fair enough, but then give a reasonable alternative.
I have the following ideas:
- Villagers can garrison in resource camps
This gives your slower units a chance to keep up with raids. Knights will still destroy your lumber camp if you give them time, but you have some time to get your pikes. This is still worth it for the knight player because it still idles your economy. - Buff EAs a LOT, but slow them down: Say you increase their range by two (1 more than the archer line), and increase Medical corps to 40hp/min, and slow them down to a bit over Armoured elephant speed. This would make it so that your opponent needs to move his vils to avoid your elephants. Since they are slow, they get time for saving their vils. He can make pikes, but your elephants will snipe them from further away. So, he needs to make a ball of pikes (or skirms). Since your EAs are slower than pikes, you now need some strategy to save them. This is way more interesting than what we have rn.
- Give them husbandry and hussar, take away wootz for stable units. Don’t give cavalry attack at blacksmiths, but give defensive ones. Spanish already have access to Champions, ES, and hussars, so this isn’t anything new. This is the least interesting option to me, but it gets the job done very well. These hussars will be extremely weak, but they will work as raiding units which can take a bit of tc/castle arrow fire.
But do something to fix this please.
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Yes but you have access to gold for 5-10 extra mins while your opponent doesn’t and that’s a good advantage.
Its true for the pre-gold ending early imp period. And thats the stage where Malians usually go for Farimba camels instead of pikes. Maybe also true in a mixed late game battle against Sicilian light cav + halb + skirm but otherwise you generally have a lot of skirms firing from behind and 7 p.armor pikes need almost twice the volleys from skirms to get killed as generic halbs. And melee units standing longer in the ground matters a lot in the late game.
This is as theoretical as things can get. Nobody is going to make elite cataphracts to fight against outnumbered halbs in the open. Cataphracts are for situations where like there was a skirm war and then suddenly the Dravidian (or any other infantry civ for that matter) player went for Urumis or champions to counter the byzantine skirm. The 20 catas vs 50 wootz steel halb fights are just for youtube videos.
If you reached a point with Dravidians where you have more relics, wootz steel halbs, skirms, walls and castles to protect your economy from raids and made your opponent to run out of gold, you have already won because that’s nearly impossible with the kind of castle age they have and your opponent has played poorly to not take advantage of that.
A castle unit with 0 p.armor, 65 hp and 65 food 20 gold is simply a terrible unit in all stages of the game. Its too little value for the food cost in castle age and its too little p.armor to survive long enough to do damage in imperial age. Berserks on the other hand have 1 more p.armor, 10 more hp and also regenerate. I wouldn’t say Berserks are one of the best unique units or a top priority for Vikings but they’re definitely much much much better than Urumis in actual game.
I really don’t know how to answer something like this. What army do you think players are going to make in early imperial age with any archer or cav archer civ? I recommend you to see this video to understand the number of civs which have a ranged unit in their ideal composition:
Personally I’d take this any day over bloodlines+husbandry+ no knights as the option of KNIGHTS in castle age is quite strong. It actually would make Dravidians quite a good mid-tier civ. But history folks have researched that Dravidians didn’t have proper cavalry and therefore its never going to get added and hence we’re discussing alternatives.
You don’t play open maps at all do you? Hand canon and champs apart other units aren’t common for open maps. Its always knights, crossbows, skirms, camels, monks, mangonels that form the primary army composition. For a very few civs, players do their uu like wagons, obuchs, conqs or ghulam as it adds a lot of value in many matchups. Cataphracts, Berserks are rare and Samurai/Jaguar are almost never useful similar to Urumis.
I agree with that but there’s a fundamental “history” and “civ design” counter argument for it. If not knights, even if those Shrivamsha riders become the regional unit for all 3 civs instead of useless elephant archers it would be great. But don’t think that would happen. A few people have also suggested the melee version of ratha as a stable unit without cav archer armor class for these 2 civs, which is also a good option.
Its not an auto-win but just better chances. Once you see how ranged units are a part of the main army composition for most civs, the importance of p.armor will become obvious.
And also its extremely difficult to not die in castle age with Dravidians. You have to be lucky enough to get some insta conversions, mangonel hits from a hill or some other form of misplay from opponent to actually stay in the game.
Gurjaras don’t have that and they’re not a regional unit for these civs.
Very tough to get to the critical mass.
Northern Isles a water map and also frigid lake is hybrid and the extra wood can open up options in Empire wars.
On point. Something like Poles, where lumberjacks generate food or farmers generate wood or something of that sort which enormously improves resource collection.
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But BE is not a generic unit either. They are regional for SEA and SA civs. Gurjaras is not really SA, they are north-west India.
That’s true. And it is more due to civ than unit imo. All EA needs is a +3 attack bonus vs spearman like other archer units. Bengalis and Dravidians need something more than EA, another civ bonus/better tech tree/buffing existing eco bonus.
I honestly think Dravidians TB can be changed to some land eco buff. Their TB is OP in TG hybrid map and they are #1 TG nomad civ, even higher than Spanish.
I’ll happily take that in exchange of 50 less wood per age up.
It is early Imperial Age agression with Cavalier+Hand Cannon+BBC. Is it stronger than Turks early Imperial? Turks’ are stronger in my opinion. It is good but Malians early game is also below average which means that Malians is only good in Earl Imperial Age. Malians is flexible civ but none of units is enough strong. It is like b. average/ b. average/above average/good/bad in Feudal/Early Castle/Late Castle Age/Early Imperial/Late Game.
Generic Pikeman still feels stronger, it kills Cavalry better. Majority of civ has Halberdier as well. Malians Pikeman is one of the worst Spear-line in the late game unfortunately. Devs should give Halberdier to Malians back in my opinion.
In castle age, you are right, Urumi is bad unit but after Dravidians set 40+ farms in Imperial Age, Urumi became one of the best infantry unit in the late game. Urumi is fast and has splash damage which enables to kill melee units even under heavy arrow fire similar to Halberdier killing ability to Cavalry under archer fire. Vikings Berserk is also top 5 infantry unit in the game but Urumi is better because Urumi counter every infantry unit in the late game.
Yes, ranged units in late game is rare. Only Cav Archers, Britons archers, Plumed Archer, Hindustanis and Bohemians HC (and Skirmisher sure) are seen in late game. Arbalest and Hand Cannon are quick target to opponent’s skirmishers which Dravidians has very good one.
Dravidians has Cavalry in history. I didn’t read any source that their cavalries are bad. If Devs wants to make them bad cavalry civ, Giving only Knight but non giving Cavalier+Plate Barding Armor is enough. Currently Dravidians is like Meso civ and only difference is that they have scout.
80 hp Light Cavalry will be used in late game. In late game, Cataphract and heavy infantry units are used. New 80 hp Light Cav is also used to kill opponent BBC and Trebucket (it is worse than Hussar but it is still better than other Dravidians units) which currently Dravidians lack. We’ve discussed this topic before Having 80 hp light cavalry on top of very strong Halberdier+Skirmisher is a bit too much in late game.
Vikings, Japanese, Ethiopians are all archer civs but they all have Knight. Vikings has also better eco than Dravidians. Ethiopians and Japanese eco is approx equal to Dravidians. I don’t find any reason to nerf them by removing Knight. Dravidians’ bonuses aren’t OP.
80 hp Light Cavalry will be used in late game. In late game, Cataphract and heavy infantry units are used. New 80 hp Light Cav is also used to kill opponent BBC and Trebucket (it is worse than Hussar but it is still better than other Dravidians units) which currently Dravidians lack. We’ve discussed this topic before Having 80 hp light cavalry on top of very strong Halberdier+Skirmisher is a bit too much in late game.
I don’t understand this logic at all. Take spanish. They have FU Halbs, Skirms, and Hussars. They also have a power unit in paladin. Even with all that, they aren’t considered OP.
Dravidians lacks a pop-efficient power unit, and an infantry-skirm combo against an arb-hussar combo will ALWAYS favour the arb-hussar combo. Just check hera’s hussar video on that.
Let’s take 1v1 late game and team late game separately, as they are fundamentally different due to trading.
For 1v1 late game, 1 gold 1 trash + siege combo is common. Dravidians only have two options for the gold unit. Urumi or elephant archer. Their BE is garbage for the late game. Urumi + halbs OR Urumi+skirms will die to arbs+hussar, with proper micro.
If dravidians go EA+halbs (let’s be honest, EA+skirms is not a good idea), Hussar + Arbs still remain extremely viable ( hussars with proper mico will eat the arrow fire from EA, while arbs will deal with the halbs) in open areas. Skirmishers are a trash unit which will counter both EA AND HALBS. Also, EAs are weak to pretty much every unique unit. You can look up MikeEmpires video on that. On top of all that, EAs have a huge problem, they can’t take down buildings. Halbs aren’t really good at that either. Now you need seige, which can be sniped by enemy skirms/cav/bombards.
Team game can get super complicated towards post imperial and gold is easy to get. In that case, Dravidians can be pretty good as urumi+EA will cover each other’s weaknesses. But there are far too many complications there to cover easily.
Additionally, I think that the devs have made it clear that they will not give Knights to Indian Civs. So, I think it’s pointless to talk about that.
All this is to say that no, 80hp light cav won’t be too strong, especially without the last armour. If that is a huge issue for you, they can just take away wootz from stable units and give EBE to Dravs. That would balance things out.
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Spanishes’ eco is one of the worst in the game. Spanishes’ late game is designed as one of the strongest late game in order to compensate early game weakness. Even then Dravidians’ Halberdier+Skirmisher is clearly stronger than Spanishes generic Halberdier+Skirmisher. This rule is vaild for all 42 civs. If one civ has good skirmisher+halberdier (FU and has bonus), it automatically lacks Hussar upgrades. Similarly if one civ has very good Hussar (FU and has bonus), its either Halberdier or Skirmisher lacks upgrades.
It is Hera’s opinion but even in pro matches, Halberdier+other unit compositions beat Hussar+other unit comps 60% of the times. Halberdier is better unit than Hussar. I watched recently Viper vs Daut showmatch and Britons Generic Halberdier+ Longbowman (its performance was disappointing, it was useful to snipe Camel Archer but they only tickled Hussars. Their damage output is too low) destroyed Berbers Hussar+Camel Archer comp even though Viper trolled and fell into pretty bad position. Halberdier is best unit in the late game. Hussar is overrated.
Spanishes’ eco is one of the worst in the game. Spanishes’ late game is designed as one of the strongest late game in order to compensate early game weakness. Even then Dravidians’ Halberdier+Skirmisher is clearly stronger than Spanishes generic Halberdier+Skirmisher. This rule is vaild for all 42 civs.
In land maps, all dravidians have is the 200 wood. It’s good for early aggression or fast castle, but doesn’t do anything for the economy. Spanish have one of the strongest late game bonuses in team games.
That is a “rule” you made up. There is no reason it should be that way. In 1v1s, you can just end the game before gold runs out. In team games, you always have gold if you have map control. Also, Spanish are the only ones who have FU for halbs, skirms and hussars. So, your “rule” hinges on that one civ alone.
Yes, viable trash is important. But you have drawn the line at a random point, as far as I’m concerned. There are many other ways to balance the civs. I feel like you avoided that question by making up something.
Halberdier+other unit compositions beat Hussar+other unit comps 60% of the times.
You need to give me some evidence for that. At least a good argument. You can’t just say that and expect everyone to believe it.
Also, you are comparing apples to oranges. They serve different functions. Halbs are only good against cav. They lack mobility and attack for anything else. This means that if your opponent has hussars, you need to force a fight. They are only good defensively, whether it be defence of your territory or defence in a unit comp.
In that video, viper just attacked halbs with hussars directly, ofc they got destroyed.
Hussars are an offensive trash, similar to skirms. You use them to raid your enemy’s base, take out his archers, monk and siege, and to scout. If you want to defend your territory, you don’t use them (except maybe for small groups of archers).
And again, hussars+archers or hussars+infantry(maybe champion, but eagles, UUs like berserker, urumi, etc) is stronger than halbs+archers, or halbs+infantry.
We can just agree to disagree, I guess. Unless you can provide arguments, or even better, stats to back up your claims.
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You didn’t understand my rule properly. One civ can have FU Hussar, Skirmisher and Halberdier but one civ can’t have 2 buffed trash units and FU third one. Dravidians has Halberdier+Skirmisher with bonuses, thus they can’t have Light Cav almost as good as FU Hussar.
For instance, Tatars, Turks and Poles has buffed Hussars but in return they lacks FU Halberdier. Bulgarians has 33% faster attacking Hussar and FU Halberdier but they lacks FU Skirmisher in return. Japanese has 33% Halberdier and FU Skirmisher, thus they lacks FU Hussar. This rule is seen in every civ. Burmese have +3 attack Halberdier and FU Hussar with +6 vs archers, in return they lacks FU Skirmsiher. There is no exception for this rule.
Spanishes is very strong in team game but they are pretty bad in open land maps unfortunately. Spanishes is for Nomad, Closed Maps and Team Games mostly.
I am watching Hera and Viper youtube channels videos for 1.5 years, I saw that Halberdier side beat Hussar 60% of the game. Even Hussar raiding lose its effectiveness with 3 defensive castles or 10-20 Halberdier patrolling in farms.
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So Lithuanians OP and need nerf? Or you will say their halberdier is bad in late game?
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You could have made a rule saying that nobody ignores melee armour 2 years ago. But they implemented something which does that now. You could have made a rule saying that nobody should get an unlimited supply of food without the market (in full land maps) 2 years ago. There were no civs at that point which could do that. That is no longer the case.
This is why I am saying that your rule is arbitrary. You don’t have a good reasoning as to why it should be the case, you are stating an observation and extrapolating it, without proper reasoning. This is like people a thousand years seeing that the surrounding ground is flat and extrapolating it to say that the earth is flat.
Devs could just give FU upgraded hussars to dravidians. You need to reason out why what would be broken, not repeat a rule which you’ve made up. Now, I think that could be OP unless cav doesn’t get wootz steel, but that’s besides the point.
Spanishes is very strong in team game but they are pretty bad in open land maps unfortunately.
You are wrong. Statistically, they have over 51% win rate at all elo ratings. They aren’t OP, but they are solidly above average, and far better than dravidians and bengalis. Logically, they have an exceptionally strong castle age unit in the conquistador, and the missionary is arguably the best support unit. They have a weak imperial and late imperial age, but that castle age alone propels them to >51% win rate. This is the exact opposite of dravidians.
I am watching Hera and Viper youtube channels videos for 1.5 years, I saw that Halberdier side beat Hussar 60% of the game. Even Hussar raiding lose its effectiveness with 3 defensive castles or 10-20 Halberdier patrolling in farms.
Anybody could say the same thing of watching games for over 1.5 years, and be statistically wrong. This is demonstrated in how you got spanish completely wrong, even though you’ve been (allegedly) watching games for a while now. Unless you crunch the numbers, you need to reason it out. You are not an authority on this, neither am I.
It’s also kinda funny that you say you know better from watching two people, when one of the two people whom you’ve watched say the exact opposite. Since Hera has played way more than either of us, shouldn’t we be taking his word then?
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Yes, Lithuanians Halberdier is worse than FU Halberdier. Their Hussar is slightly better than Generic. Skirmisher is only heavly buffed trash unit of Lithuanians.
It is different. 3 buffed trash unit in late game will break game balance. Also there is no civ in early game that has too good eco bonuses because it will also break game balance. For instance, Vikings eco bonus is maybe best in the game, in return the eco bonus starts in Feudal Age and they have no military bonus except 20% hp infantry. Therefore it doesn’t break game balance. Poles is similiar. It has insane eco bonus but it isn’t too strong until mid Castle Age, Poles doesn’t have military bonus in return. That’s why Poles aren’t also OP.
I am talking about land map for Spanishes. Spanishes being weak in open land maps is known. https://youtu.be/9ccdiN4-vok?t=1959
Hera has obsession with Hussars. Even then Hera is also more successful with Halberdier or Pikeman against Hussar civs. In one match, Hera beat Viper with Vikings Pikeman+Berserk+Arbalest against Lithuanians Winged Hussar+Skirmisher+ Hand Cannons. In tournament matches, Halberdier comps mostly beat Hussar comps. Halberdier is better than Hussar, it is mostly certain. Hussar has advantages in return but it isn’t enough.
It is different. 3 buffed trash unit in late game will break game balance.
Alright, now we’ve got away from that rule and can talk about why things are the way they are. Even the strongest buffs to the scout line I’ve seen proposed here are weaker than generic FU hussars. My suggestion is also weaker than FU hussars (standard FU hussars with no civ bonuses). Your opposition is to bloodlines, specifically. But they don’t get the last armour upgrade, and most (including OP) have proposed taking away wootz steel from the stable line.
Most importantly, even if dravidians get hussars with bloodlines and wootz steel, that doesn’t kick in till late imperial age. They need far too many other upgrades (including EEA, Wootz, Elite Urumi, Arbalest, Blacksmith upgrades, etc) and lacks almost all late game eco upgrades. Just to add to the issue, they are already heavily food intensive (all units except arbs cost food, and elephants needs a LOT of food). So, pumping out hussars isn’t going to happen till much later.
This doesn’t solve their greatest weakness, which is the castle age. Even if their Light cav get bloodlines and husbandry, they will be nothing more than raiding units.
I am talking about land map for Spanishes. Spanishes being weak in open land maps is known. The Best 1v1 Civilizations (Land maps) | AoE2 - YouTube
I literally don’t care what hera says about this. The statistics are what matters. How many games are played, how wins more, how do the games go, etc. Hera, as good as he is - and he is one of the best - has his own biases. The statistics say they win more than 51%, so they do. The statistics show that spanish are solidly above average, so they are.
Hera has obsession with Hussars. Even then Hera is also more successful with Halberdier or Pikeman against Hussar civs.
And maybe you have a bias against hussars, and a bias for halbs. Cav civs are still the most picked in tournaments, and the scout line is used as much as the spear line, if not more.
That’s still something. Besides for some civ lose most of their eco bonus in EW like Mongols/ Goths/ Japanese or getting extra penalty like Huns. There are still some civs not picked at all like Portuguese/Celts/Burmese/ Persians/ Malians / Malay / Slavs.
I don’t think Dravidians are necessarily bad compared to those civs I mentioned. Comparing Dravidians with Celts. Dravidians have better infantry, better archer, worse cavalry,seige is not necessarily worse to Celts because BBC can deal with enemy seige and having SO isn’t impactful in most maps in 1v1.
Hmm… Seems Elephant archer should be supposed to their power unit? (Not talking about they are good. Not sure about buff direction of EA)
For those logic, every archer/infantry civ need decent hussar to compete in late game like Ethiopians/ Koreans (which lack BOTH last armor and attack)/ Malay/ Japanese.
I think other way around. If Hussar+ranged unit combo is that strong, we should take away hussar for some civs to lessen the power creep. Hussar is already spread enough to most of the civs and talking about giving more to those civ and other civs, it makes every civ design too bland.
I think even without good hussar Dravidians have enough good tools in trash war like Wootz steel champion/ Faster Attacking champion and I really don’t think they need more than that in that stage of game. Then we have to give good hussar to every civs.
You don’t need hussars, please read my earlier comments on this. They just need something. Hussars are my least favourite option.
I was just pointing out to that user that hussars with dravidians wouldn’t be OP, if you do it properly.
Also, power creep isn’t an issue with Dravidians since they are a bottom civ on land maps.
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It was your suggestion to give them Hussar/Bloodline. I just make opinion on that.
I don’t like worse copy of Khmer bonus but I also agree on buffing EA.
Along with Wootzsteel halb/faster attacking skirms. They can become OP in trash war, and I think they are not top but top10 for trash war. So no buff is needed for that stage of game.
I am repeating myself here, again, but take wootz steel away from stable units. This has been a repeated recommendation of mine, but also OP of this thread. The issue isn’t trash, the issue is mobility and raiding/counter-raiding. It’s castle age.
It was your suggestion to give them Hussar/Bloodline. I just make opinion on that.
Yes, but you didn’t read the full context. Which is why I linked my original comment.
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Since you watch Hera games, please look into this game Dravidians Vs Saracens against Yo. Despite receiving extra wood bonus, Hera will never put down a stable because stable units are trash and elephants need a lot of food. Despite the game going late even after woots steel, Hera quits since he does not have any raiding unit. Dravidian light cav too has no bonus like bloodlines or husbandry. So nobody will put down stables since your light cav will be worse than ur enemy unit. Unfortunately I’m unable to share youtube link.
Search " Dravidians vs Saracens | Empire Wars | 1v1 Runestones | vs miguel | AoE2" in youtube.
The best match to watch to see why Dravidians need a buff in castle age is the Red bull EW Semi-final first match between Villese and Lierry. Despite Villese having the lead most of the match, once they both went upto castle age, Villese just quit. Despite having 2 barracks, Villese knew Eagles with castle age armour cannot be countered by archers or skirms. The potential to raid in a ‘tit for tat’ play also does not exist since Dravidians have no units comparable to Eagles. Here is the match Video of match starts from o min to 11 mins. Villese calls GG since he can’t boom and army cannot be created any faster with current resources. Dravidians need food bonus to defend with 1 TC play in early castle age. Liereyy vs Villese - Semifinals - Red Bull Wololo Legacy - YouTube
In the current 1 vs 1 meta, Dravidians are expected to counter knights and Eagles with faster firing elephant archers. But that EA has less speed(Husbandry), HP(bloodlines) and armor(other upgrades) compared to Bengalis and Gujjaras. Due to lack of husbandry and bloodlines, even Elephant rams and Battle elephants of Dravidians are the worst in the game in terms of Speed and HP. The cost of dravidian elephants is nominally same as others. But once techs and eco bonus are included, Dravidian EA cost becomes highest among them which makes it not worth making since there is no food bonus. Dravidian food bonus of +15 fish collection is too niche applicable only in very few maps with shore fish. The food bonus should be Villagers carry +15 food not fish. This could make elephant with skirms as a viable defence play in castle age. But to take the fight back to the enemy, Dravidians need a more mobile unit. So Husbandry can help here a little bit. They need unit like the knight line which can be similar to Shrivamsha rider or Bengali Rata.
The Dravidians cannot be compared with Spanish. Because as pointed out their win rate is clearly better and they have a power spike in castle age due to conquistadors. So they don’t share the Dravidian problem.
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