The biggest problem with buffs to infantry is at 1000 Elo. That’s where most players are, and also where most players lack the skill to effectively counter a simple and powerful unit like the militia line.
Infantry civs are already very strong there; give them a superpower like this, and the impact at high elo will be small because of the reasons you highlight, but at lower elos, they could well become extremely powerful, potentially OP.
Any changes made need to be made with the goal of primarily benefitting higher elo players. That means micro-intensive, multi-unit compositions, siege, etc.
For champion its like Chieftains against cavalry and rest like you’ve mentioned. For halbs its practically the same impact as Burmese ones. All of these are fine if it was a civ bonus but its an imp UT that costs more than 1300 resources which is way too high, comes way too late for its worth.
I think it should be the other way around. Discount should be reduced but have a broader scope. Barrack and range techs cost -40%. Or something like all military upgrades cost -25%
As you might know i always support big buffs to weakest civs but receiving both 200 stone and extra work rate within tc los could be a bit too much. It could lead to situations where players get some crazy fast castle drop kindof plays as well.
Probably just start with +100 wood, 100 wood discount on barracks and the tc work rate bonus is good.
If you’re talking about fishermen there are no such maps for the ranked ladder. Maps like volcanic swamp, fish n fish, morass, death valley are not going to become mainstream. That bonus should either turn into extra drop-off from all animal sources or something else if you want it to impact a wide variety of maps.
Like I’ve said previously its just a noisy small data effect. aoestats has even added ± to indicate fluctuation. 11% absolute is a huge fluctuation, it should be more like 1% or lower. If you believe those stats are a reflection of civ ranking, it would imply Slavs, Magyars and Sicilians are top-5 water civs.
Actually aoepulse is up and running again and at scale Dravidian winrate on Arena drops to 45% over the last 6 months for 1700+ elos. So bad news for you my friend, Dravidians are actually not good on Arena.
That’s also a good alternative. Something like start with 2 shore fish under tc could be a great way of making them hit castle age sooner.
Majority of the changes discussed in the thread preserve the theme of being a civ with negligible mobility and reliant of infantry plus ranged units. Bonuses were meant to make it more difficult for other civs to exploit the lack of mobility.
I think economic bonus or benefits to usable ranged units or some unconventional early game builds are some ways to do that. But I’d not be overly concerned about this. There’s always high variance in lower elo games and direct infantry buffs in the past like cheaper longswords upgrade or gambesons have not broken the game at such levels.
It is still different from Chieftain. Wootz steel is imp UT while Chieftains is castle UT and costing less. Even you swap the elephant regen UT and Wootz steel, they can’t be like Vikings without good eco.
Giving Dravidians good eco will further buff water maps/hybrid maps. So swapping UT should pair with militia discount/costing wood from Castle age onwards.
African clearing is a map where fishing has a major impact, and has often been on the ranked ladder. I believe the map Alpine Lakes has also been on the ranked ladder. And tournaments have often used maps that aren’t mainstream, and some of those have included maps with shore fish (or shoreline deep fish) on them in places convenient for villagers.
Also, the old Indians were strong on African Clearing at least in part due to their fishing bonus. I believe it is why the Dravidians got extra carry capacity on fishermen rather than the original bonus to fishing rate (because the bonus was considered too strong)
Given they tend to play largely as an archer civ(lacking cavalry and infantry being poor in the midgame), and archer pathing has been pretty messed up for a significant period of time, that’s an unsurprising, but also not particularly useful, statistic.
A more accurate representation of their power would be the current patch, where they’ve got 1800 games on which to base data, and a win rate of 50.24%±2.26. I think that’s more than sufficient to label them as ‘decent’ on Arena. For team maps, the data is even better, with 6,627 games played and a winrate of 49.27%±1.20.
So no, I really don’t think ‘noisy small data effect’ is a valid viewpoint here.
I thought about that. I was leaning towards something like a guaranteed fish pond SOMEWHERE near their base(not necessarily under tc, as that doesn’t really play into their distance bonus). Or just standardizing the pond spawns on Arabia. It’s a bit annoying they’re so completely random. Honestly, a more standard arabia pond spawn would be my ideal case, maybe with a guaranteed spawn of at least one pond SOMEWHERE near the player, but not so near as to replace a wood line.
As I see it, the Dravidians are a slow, Water/Elephant Civ with power spikes and discounts.
Thus far we’ve seen people suggesting removing: Their water bonuses, their elephant bonuses, their power spikes, their slowness, and their discounts. And replacing them with speed bonuses, long-term eco bonuses, and cavalry bonuses.
I’ve said it before, but what I’d like to see is this:
+100% Stone Wall Build Speed.
This would make Stone Walls build in 5 seconds, compared to Palisades at 7. Thanks to the saved villager time, this would place the total resource cost of Stone Walls roughly equal to Palisades, as well. Stone walls are one of the most effective ways of countering knights in early castle age, before siege is on the field, and would allow a Dravidians player a few vital minutes to catch their breath and engage on their own terms.
Fishermen and Fishing Ships Carry +15 Food → Fishermen, Foragers, and Fishing Ships Carry +15 Food.
A small but meaningful bonus, this will allow the Dravidian player to collect from Forage Bushes with more villagers, and briefly delay going for Horse Collar, increasing their early winrates slightly and giving them more time to work with in the early feudal age. In my testing, this resulted in approximately 10% faster food collection.
Medical Corps: Elephants Regenerate 30hp/second → Elephants Regenerate 30hp/second, nearby units heal 1/2 as much.
This will make Medical Corps a much more valid choice earlier on, when elephants are less prevalent. It will encourage adding a few elephants early on, and it will encourage the use of Champions to counter Skirmishers. It will make Urumi Swordsmen more viable, allowing them to absorb occasional hits and build up a critical mass more effectively.
These three bonuses, taken together, give Dravidians a slightly more potent early game, buy them time to survive the early castle age, and help them get to their lategame compositions, and use the units they’re meant to use.
They will also have minimal impact on water maps and closed maps, and 100% preserve their existing themes.
That’s part of the problem. He suggests a way to make the fishermen bonus broadly applicable to most settings. And even though these maps might have showed up a few times in the 1v1 ladder their play percentage is low. Its not a regularly played candidate like Arabia, Arena, Nomad.
They also had the villager discount, Camels got +6 vs buildings, monks with redemption. Not that I’m proposing 15% faster work rate on fishermen for Dravidians but just saying that it won’t be too strong for Dravidians on most maps.
Of course. I think that’s a fair point about any archer civ. I think the regrouping bug happened after Warlords 2 but before NAC 5. Even with those 2 patches removed the 6 month data for top level gives a 47% winrate. I’m not saying these stats are very meaningful but I’m just indicating that when the number of games increase, they don’t retain a 50+% winrate. 34 games are way too low to infer.
The site switches over to previous patch stats when you select a map. I don’t think its possible to have 1800 top level Arena games in 10 days. The small data noise just gave the illusion of Dravidians being a top tier Arena civ which its not. Its definitely not the worst but I wouldn’t go that far to consider them a closed map powerhouse. Too many important techs missing for that to be true.
This could be good too. Some fundamental changes to the standard dark age food on Arabia. Honestly I’d replace this shore fish under tc with their current fishermen bonus. Most of the maps where players have the option to fish aggressively for long require mobility which doesn’t fit them.
I think that’s a major part of the misunderstanding. Dravidians aren’t an elephant civ at all. Elephants in general are unplayable by current balance but even if they become a usable option, a strong long lasting eco benefit like Khmer or Persians or a massive discount on the units is mandatory. And second they’re supposed to be slow due to lack of fast moving units but not be a slow civ to reach next ages.
No one suggested removal of their fishing ship, dock or wood bonus. Power spikes, medical corps, siege discount don’t fit the civ in its current state. However if they’re able to reach next ages with faster builds some of these bonuses except for medical corps could make sense. Long term eco bonus or military discount and being able to hit next ages sooner is a minimum requirement for civs with poor castle age cavalry, all the current civs follow this rule. As an added benefit it will even make the elephant archer play a bit more feasible. I believe as an alternative speed bonuses were suggested on slow units thereby still keeping the civ immobile but not unusable.
It doesn’t matter whether its 5 or 4.5 seconds, it doesn’t fit the civ. Stone walling is meant for civs like Poles, Georgians that are weak early on but have terrific military in the mid game. This can make sense if its paired with @benithisrael proposal of villagers working faster within tc LOS and if urumi are replaced by something useful.
its a negligible 2% benefit and your hypothetical scenario test of 10 villagers on berries to force bumping and squeeze more benefit is just a bad build.
This is a good change in the niche situations where Dravidians managed to get enough Elite Elephant archers. Practically not applicable unless they get strong eco benefit to play elephants.
It won’t and the units they’re meant to use are both terribly overpriced while still being practically unusable.
We’re still looking at a ~50% WR with 2.26 variation. And even at 1900+, the variation could, at most, pull them down to a 49% winrate, which is perfectly fine, almost perfect, even.
On the whole, I think I’d need a strong statistical argument to believe Dravidians are anything but well-balanced on closed and water maps, but none have been offered up just yet.
Anyway, moving onto the berry bonus, I had to do some fairly extensive testing. In my tests, the worst-case scenario was a perfectly-placed mill directly adjacent to the berries with just 2 villagers working, where I got an averaged improvement of 2.3%. However, that’s not a common arrangement; most experienced players use more than that, and if you increase it to even 4 villagers, the improvement jumped dramatically to over 6%. With 8, of course, we see a full 10% collection rate improvement. And with poor mill placement, which happens more often than you might think, it can go higher still.
Of course, players can always choose not to use a bonus to its fullest, but that’s on them; Franks getting free horse collar isn’t a bad bonus if people refuse to make farms!
I will reiterate, however, that the objective of this bonus is NOT to be massively powerful. The opposite, in fact; it’s a bonus that could be freely given to the Dravidians because it’s not good enough on its own to qualify as an entire bonus for another civ. The point is merely to offer the Dravidians an aspect of their food bonus that works on all map types, and slightly even them out on maps without water. They should be weaker on non-water maps, but not as much weaker as they currently are.
And it can do all this without adding a ‘new’ bonus to the civ, merely modifying an old one.
As far as walls go, I see no particular reason why they shouldn’t get a walling bonus. If they were Goths or Cumans, sure, but stylistically, there’s nothing in particular that marks the Dravidians as not deserving a wall bonus. Historically speaking, they were known for having some of the best architectural abilities of any kingdom in India, too, so as far as I’m concerned, especially considering their slow playstyle, they’re a perfect candidate for a walling bonus. Especially since there are relatively few wall-specific bonuses out there.
As we know from their acceptable winrates on closed maps, they have the power to succeed, they just need a little help getting there. Bonuses like these, giving them a bit of a stronger early-game advantage and letting them capitalize on it to defend themselves effectively, are laser-focused into that objective.
Not sure what this is all about. Its perfectly fine for something to be an average civ for closed if they’re top tier on a couple of other categories. Like great for mid control based maps, chaotic map category etc. But Dravidians are terrible on most, average on some, top tier only on pure water maps.
Can you share some details of this test. Like for how long was the collection observed (3 mins, 5 mins, full berry exhaustion), how many trials you ran, did you change the berry generations or just used fixed shape, fraction of times where you had to force task a stuck villager to keep the comparison even etc. Mathematically its impossible to hit 6% benefit for a bonus like this with the standard 4 vills used. I believe there must have either been a bugged vill or you placed the mill such that there’s always at least a gap of 1-tile between the mill and berries or something else that doesn’t usually happen in ranked.
Anyways even if you actually gave something worth 6% faster berries its insufficient for their current tech tree. Maybe if the barrack tech discount extended to all military techs or something, this bonus could be small.
A mill can even be placed 5 tiles away from the berries by some players. That’s just a knowledge issue.
People skip horse collar quite often and still make farms. Farms are just mandatory. Free horse collar just saves the resources to enable faster up-time or float extra wood upon reaching castle age if opponent skipped it.
Anyways Franks also get berry bonus. 5-6x better than this despite getting free horse collar, free extra hp on cav etc. But people don’t dump a dozen vills on berries to make use of it. Certain niche maps apart the amount of food from berries is always going to be 750 and in majority of the open map games animals and berries alone is insufficient to reach castle age and get eco upgrades.
Something like Dravidian foragers and fishermen dropoff 15% more food fits your definition. And why on earth would you give such a weird and weak non-bonus. Portugese were good on water and closed maps, but they still got buffed with a much stronger berry bonus that gives them 1 wood per 3 food. Its not a strong civ to be cautious with dark age eco bonus.
Has nothing to do with history. They shouldn’t get a walling bonus because they have an abysmal mid-game. You need to have some amazing mid game military option for such a bonus to make sense. Amongst Indian civs you can give a walling bonus to Hindustanis, Gurjaras. Those civs can wall, get a good boom and can comeback in the mid game with their powerful units. If Rathas get buffed and don’t take bonus damage from skirms, even Bengalis can get such a walling bonus. Dravidians don’t have such units. No Camels at all, no Shrivamsha riders, ghulam or any other raid unit either. They rely on a timing advantage to make their mediocre military work. If they’re not going to get a very strong 2nd eco benefit for land maps, stone walling is suicidal.
I’d definitely not generalize it as “closed” maps. Arena is just one closed map where there’s no scope for mobility as there’s wood along the edges limiting the land available. Plenty of closed maps where they’d be below average since they miss a lot of important closed map techs. Anyways its a mediocre winrate obtained by including a huge number of 3 digit elo games and cannot generalize to all maps. And a map starting with stone walls will not have the same gameplay as player stone walling to secure their map.
Well, like I said, they’re also good on general water maps, but the stats aren’t strong enough for you there. In practice, they’re basically JUST bad on Arabia, it’s just that Arabia makes up like 50% of all games.
My testing protocol was, I generated a max-player arabia map in the editor, to get a random assortment of berry generations. I then deleted the other players and, on each of their randomly-generated berries, placed a Mill as ideally as I could, and placed a number of villagers directly adjacent. I then started the scenario, paused instantly, and tasked the number of villagers in question to harvest the berries. I then checked the ingame clock when each individual berry bush cluster ran out(generally within about 30 seconds of each other), added up all the times.
Then I restarted the scenario, but activated a trigger increasing their foraging capacity by 15, and repeated the methodology, again adding all the times together. I then divided the first number by the second number to get the efficiency multiplier.
This gave me a realistic averaged score which we could expect in a typical game. The thing is, bumping takes a surprising amount of time, and it doesn’t take much to reduce your efficiency fairly substantially. That, plus walking time on the later berries, adds up to a fairly significant difference over the entire collection time.
That’s not the only reason. You might place your mill differently for, for example, better defense, or because you plan to put more villagers on berries. SOTL discovered that if you’re using more than a small number, having a 1-tile distance is more efficient than 0-tile placement.
Because that would probably be pretty overpowered. Fish already collect very quickly. Remember the Indians? They were basically the default choice on any map with fish, because they could collect insanely rapidly.
In practice, the carry bonus IS good, it just needs to be used correctly, and I like that about it. Compared to the Indians bonus, which was just crazy good with completely normal play.
Honestly, it’s BECAUSE they lack the superpowered eco that I think giving them a walling bonus is okay. If you gave super-walls to Bengalis, they’d become unstoppable. The only thing keeping their eco in check is the ability to raid it. Their strategy would become a universal ‘wall up, boom, kill everyone’.
The objective of this is to give them options, not one failsafe strategy. But I disagree with the idea that their poor early castle age means a walling bonus wouldn’t be helpful. They have some very potent units, they just lack the ability to counteract raids early on, since Knights at that stage have an extreme advantage due to their mobility. They don’t need to 5 tc boom to win, they just need to survive and not lose half their eco in that timeframe, so they can get to the point where pikes counter knights again, and they can have a fair fight.
They’ll still be at a disadvantage, sure, but at least not a completely imbalanced one.
Sure, but our objective here isn’t to turn Dravidians into an Arabia powerhouse. In fact, I think that’s probably impossible, it’s completely counter to their design as a low-mobility civ. They’ll always be weaker on Arabia.
Just, perhaps, they shouldn’t be ‘40% winrate’ weaker. Get them up to ~45%, keep Arena around 50%, maybe bump it up to 52%, and leave their water performance at 60%, and they’ll be in a very decent state, imo.
OMEGALOL, They’re terrible on all open maps - Land Madness, Atacama, Enclosed, Haboob, Outcrop, Cross, Graveyards, Steppe, Ghost lake, Gold rush, golden pit, several more. Its just that Arabia is the only open map commonly played on ladder since its always available. If they rotate Arabia out of the map pool, Dravidians will be equally terrible on any open map that replaces it.
But what is that “ideal”? One tile away or directly adjacent to a few tiles of berries such that mill is closer to tc? And how did you distribute the vills? 2 vills per bush, all 4 on 1?
I’d expect some deviation due to such factors but still a 2.5x factor increase from the theoretical benefit of 2-2.5% seems abnormally too large for just 4 vills and a mill placed tightly close to berries.
This is fine on maps where berries generate very far from tc like legacy generations. Or like a second pack on land madness. But otherwise berries are like 8 tiles from tc these days. Its good to just build the mill without a gap almost always in the current Arabia.
I believe that’s a consequence of poor pathfinding where if you don’t queue up the next berry they might roam around and pick a bush quite farther away from the previous one. Should be good if you manually shift click the next bush for the vills. Anyways most of these are pathfinding side effects. If they integrate pre-return of rome pathing, it will be almost gone and this bonus would become a lot more mediocre.
Remember their tech tree? They also had 10/15/20% discount on their vills, +1 p.armor on Camels, +6/+5 bonus damage for camels vs buildings, bloodlines, husbandry, +4 cav armor, hussar, siege engineers, fully upgradable heavy CA, trebs and canons with siege engineers, redemption monks. And yet they had that bonus for 9 years and neither that civ nor the game was considered broken because of the bonus.
Dravidians have none of these. It should always be great units moderate eco benefit or average units great eco for balance. On the contrary Dravidians get Meme units, mediocre eco.
Its great for fishing ships, farmers. Decent for lumberjacks. Terrible for all the other sources.
Lithuanians, Georgians, Spanish, Mongols will. Bengalis won’t unless Rathas get a lot stronger than now. That civ needs some minor changes either to Rathas or to make elephants usable in general, a different topic. Walling bonus makes sense only when paired with strong eco and powerful yet reasonably priced units for the mid game. Otherwise you’ll wall up, boom and before you have started making your expensive units, opponent will break-in.
Never did I say that a weak early castle age is why they shouldn’t get a stone walling bonus. Its mid castle age weakness that makes it an irrelevant bonus.
Firstly, they don’t have potent units, they just have terrible units. You can’t say xyz unit is great unless you compare it with what other civs get at that stage and how it ranks up against those.
Second its not just the lack of ability to handle raids, their units can’t force fights or raid themselves. Third they’re also too expensive on food and its not easy to afford them without a reasonably large farming economy. Fourth, they however need to be in large numbers since they’re not useful in small groups.
You might get to a stage where you’ve not fallen behind too much to knight raids but there’s no follow up to it. You’d actually have to be way ahead to have the timing the momentum and hold the hill near opponent base to push. With their current economic bonus that’s not possible either.
Its ok to have a disadvantage for a while if the civ has strong tools to comeback. But Dravidians don’t have any. You can justify a walling bonus only if you make the necessary military or eco bonus modifications.
Out and about right now, so I can’t edit this post quite as well as normal, so sorry about that preemptively.
Anyway, you are right that they are weak at most open maps, but that weakness would be at least partially mitigated by the berry bonus. Arabia does not really have supplementary berries, but many of the open maps do have clusters of berry bushes that would see benefits far beyond the ones I talked about for arabia, because you couldn’t place a mill in as close of proximity.
For my testing, I put the mill directly adjacent to the berries, not one tile away. I can’t say why, in particular, I got the results I did, only that I did get them. This testing was done, however, on the current pup. In general, I don’t think we will ever get path into the point of such Perfection that a carry bonus becomes useless.
Regarding a drop off bonus, remember that dravidians have their own economic bonuses. Maps where they can use their fishing bonus are already very decent for them, giving them this would make them objectively much more powerful in the same circumstances, where they don’t need it.
Their real powerhouse unit is the elephant archer. If they can get those rolling, they can win games with them alone. The problem is, they do tend to take a massive farming economy, and accumulate DPS more slowly than other unit types. On the flip side, they are very hard to kill, especially in combination with regeneration. This is exactly the sort of place where Walling bonuses are perfect, since it allows them to retreat to safety and take full advantage of that regeneration, slowly building towards a critical mass that can win the game.
In general, I would not hesitate to describe them as a death ball civilization. Give them a chance to build up a mass of urumi Swordsmen or elephant archers, and they can be completely deadly. It’s just that both of those units take a significant Mass to achieve good results, and especially in the case of urumi Swordsman, require castles to mass. Castles which unfortunately, are not sufficient on their own to completely protect an economy. It’s with those units in particular in mind that I support a Walling bonus, buying them time to use those units.
In my opinion, the Infantry discount is mostly a way to counteract the counters to those units, which is predominantly skirmishers. That’s why it only kicks in in the feudal age, heavily limiting their Rush potential.
If I were to sketch a picture of the civilization I am envisioning, it is one that slow pushes and then fortifies. They slow push in the feudal age, then fortify with walls. They withstand the initial attack with Siege, and then slowly push again, taking advantage of their defensive bonuses and regeneration to maintain and build their strength until they win the game.
You are just making up strange rules. By your logic, American civs should not have most blacksmith upgrades. Armor is armor and this is a video game. Also, AE has -2 armor which gets cancelled out by blacksmith upgrades. Further, those same blacksmith upgrades improve pierce armor as well and there are plenty of images of elephant armor on google so it is valid even by your logic.
False. HC5 was all about hybrid maps and Dravidians got picked on cup but Bulgarians never got picked for anything. Fish and dock bonus makes Dravidians high or top tier on hybrid maps. Even on land maps, Bulgarians are not really preferred because there are so many civs that do most of what Bulgarians do better that you never have to pick Bulgarians.
That does not compensate for power creeping on Bulgarians’ main identity. Also, I think cheaper attack upgrades is much worse in game than free cav armor since you still have to pay resources and spend research time on those attack upgrades. Also, attack is useless unless you survive long enough to hit your enemy which is a big problem for Dravidians in castle age.
Exactly, devs will make new civs with your suggestions rather than change Dravidians into this.
Hera in his HC5 video about game 3: “This is why I don’t like pike defense vs knights. The siege + monks comes and then pikes are completely useless. It’s a hard position. This is the weakness of Dravidians, right? When you have to fight on land, I always siege push Dravidians. There’s no threat, they don’t have knights.”
In this situation, infantry don’t work because they are too slow and get converted or killed by mangonels. Siege discount doesn’t work because cost of siege doesn’t matter as much as how many siege units you have. Lierrey did not have any blacksmith upgrades because he could not afford it, while Hera only had 1 attack upgrade. This is a situation where free cav armor would have allowed Lierrey to switch into LC and kill the monks and siege, allowing potential for some elephant play.
Given that a discount can easily translate into more units, I’m not certain how this logic holds. And if production speed is the issue, then the wood savings can eventually help pay for an additional siege workshop.
Only in the long term. It’s more an issue of the short term, imo. Saving 55 wood per mangonel is nice, but when you both have 1 workshop, you’ll have equal siege(in the beginning). It’s not enough to really change the dynamic for a while, and early castle age is when you need it the most. If you can survive for long enough, it eventually pays off, but not at the start.
Especially since you lack two of the best ways to kill enemy siege, knights and redemption monks. Even if you win the 1v1 against the enemy mangonel, you need to be very attentive or they’ll snipe your mangonel with their knights and you’re in trouble anyway.
As @DemiserofD explained, in the event of siege push in early-mid castle age you don’t have time and resources to make multiple siege workshops to make lots of units. Both Dravidians and the aggressor will have 1 siege workshop producing 1 mangonel to shoot at each other. It is 50-50 chance of survival, but the option of knights tilts the odds in favor of the aggressor. Hera was running around Lierrey’s base with cav waiting for opportunities to pick off the mangonels every time the pikes were out of position all while simultaneously pushing with his mangonel. Free cav armor could have helped Lierrey stop this and force Hera to pay more attention to his own mangonel.
By the time Dravidians can save enough resources from mangonels to make a siege workshop, the situation will have already snowballed in favor of the aggressor.
The bonus is just a wood discount - Dravidians still pay full gold cost. You need enough gold to produce 2 whole mangonels (in addition to everything else like upgrades, monks, etc.) in order to make the 2nd siege workshop count.
The player will have to find a space for that 2nd building and it is hard to manage it along with the defense at the same time. Even Lierrey could not do it. Hera soon had enough mangonels to deny the castle that Lierrey tried to place, so if he tried to place a 2nd siege workshop it might have also been denied.
The real purpose is adding supplementary units, imo. Every mangonel gets a free pikeman or skirmisher, essentially.
I’d be inclined towards some sort of anti siege or anti monk bonus. Something like, ‘skirmishers and elephant archers fire 25% faster and deal +2 damage to monks’.
Can you check individual civ vs civ W/R in aoestats.io? I only find top 5 win against and bottom 5 win against. I want to see all the 44 match ups of Dravidians.
