Dravidians odd one out among ‘At least one unit-line affected by two UTs’ mechanism

Well, like I said, this is a tech you get after at least you’ve taken some damage, not right at the start of castle age. You’ve got more than enough time to get a castle later on down the line, the elephants just help to justify that decision.

That returns to my earlier point about retroactive bonuses.

Tusk Swords, for example, is largely beneficial based on the strength of your current units. IE, if you have 10 units with half hp each, then getting tusk swords is only going to give you half the value. Especially since your enemy likely already has counter units out.

But Medical Corps is different. It actually works best if you have a weakened army, and it applies to a variety of different unit types, allowing greater latitude in your progression forwards. Where a Khmer player finds themselves somewhat obligated to use more battle elephants, a Dravidian player can freely opt into Armored Elephants or Elephant Archers as needed. Unlike the Khmer player who likely already has counters out, the Dravidian player can swap into something that they haven’t yet countered.

The only thing it doesn’t really help against is monks, which counters most elephant units roughly equally, but that’s why +5 LOS and all.

Plus,in my experience Dravidians almost always end up getting pushed back in mid castle age, so they’re going to want a relatively early castle anyway.

Like I said, this is just to demonstrate relative power, not to simulate a practical situation. That’s why it’s actually biased in favor of the knights in terms of resources; it’s just to display relative potency of different techs. In terms of value added, Medical Corps offers approximately equal value per cost to Iron Casting, without even taking into account the long-term value. That’s pretty good for half of a tech!

Cavalry will always have an agility advantage, but that doesn’t mean you go without upgrades!

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Why not? A Dravidian BE with 68% HP will do less than any other BE with 68% HP (Maybe even Malay) as all have better bonus than Dravidians. AoE units don’t lose HP in terms of %. They lose HP in actual value.

These 2 statements seem contradictory. If it makes BE viable, then it is more useful than Medical Corps as the effect is very minimum even for the most useful elephant unit, Elephant Archer.

Yeah for the most part. In low and no gold situation this is better than Malay.

OMG Just make a monk for 2-3 elephants my man. You can get relics and heal those injured 2 elephants. You don’t need a castle and a UT for that 11.
Regeneration is a bonus for units actively used aggressively. Like you’re constantly pushing with Camel archers, raiding and taking down buildings with Berserkrs. Its not a bonus for sitting in your base with 2 units.

Tusk sword is beneficial because if at all its done and the player is doing Elite battle elephants, it can take out enemy siege, buildings, some slow units faster. Like skirms or hand canons without last armor die 1 hit sooner. It can also protect own/allied siege better. Some light cav step in and they’d get killed a hit sooner, as a chain reaction the subsequent units will die even sooner. It increases the value of a push with Elite Battle elephants. Again its not worth getting it for 2 units.

Exactly and you NEVER progress forward with Dravidian Battle elephants. You could with Elephant archers and some other units in the mix but no Battle Elephants.

Khmer rarely use Battle elephants. They have good stable units, crossbows, scorps and hand canons. Its usually some combination of these units. And thats inspite of having insanely good farming eco. Think about what that means for a garbage civ like Dravidians with almost no upgrades on Battle elephants. Armored elephants from Dravidians are also a huge waste of resources. In castle age they’ll die to mangonels just like ##### you can’t garrison infantry for faster speed or anything and if left unguarded a monk can convert it even without redemption. In imperial age they’ll melt to halbs. You have to use canons and trebs with Dravidians.
That just leaves us with Elephant archers which is the intended unit.

That’s fine. But after that you’d probably want to wall and go imp as soon as you can to win the treb war. Not waste it on medical corps and battle elephants.

This is again theoretically speaking from the scenario where several Battle elephants were produced for some reason and are constantly being used aggressively. Never happens in actual game. You don’t have the food eco nor a bonus like conversion resistance nor the most basic upgrade husbandry. If you’re playing with stable units as Dravidians in mid castle age or early in imp, you’re guaranteed to lose. You can only use it as a flex move in a game where you’ve already won and opponent is refusing to resign.
Not that the tech is bad by itself but because Battle elephants in general are bad and specifically for Dravidians are abysmal, it doesn’t have any significance. A defensive castle drop into Medical corps + Battle elephants + armored elephants is by far the worst gameplan for Dravidians, even worse than going urumi swordsmen.

No idea what the relevance is to this discussion. Even if you have an attack upgrade less or an attack and armor upgrade less, the knight player will determine whether he wants to fight or not because its the faster unit. You can’t force a fight with elephants. In the rare cases where they’re used with some civs and it worked, its because of being an unexpected move and those civs having a lot of benefits on top of all upgrades. Dravidians don’t have anything of that sorts. So its not going to be useful at all for forward aggression.

That’s my point, though; after 55 seconds, they did the exact same amount with 68% HP.

There’s no reason to pick one or the other. Especially with a unit as tanky as elephants, a bonus to how fast they can be healed is of value, too.

My point was that if you’re getting Medical Corps, it’s with the expectation of making many more elephants in the future. Monks are a relatively short-term investment, because they die and they offer the same amount of healing no matter what. Medical Corps is a long-term investment. It never dies, and scales with your army.

But given the fact that Dravidians are quite weak in the castle age, a long-term investment is exactly what you need.

In an ideal case you might go for walls and into imp, but typically that will just result in your enemy outproducing you and killing you off before your imperial advantage can play out. You kinda have to fight before then, like it or not. And you can’t really afford to just sit at home and let your monks heal your elephants up to full, because that surrenders complete map control. You also can’t really go for elephant archers early on, because their relative value per cost is quite low until you can get deathball numbers up.

Your power unit here is your battle elephants. They’re what can actually make your enemy run away and turn a purely defensive fight into a more even one. Yes, you need to combine this with defenses like walls and castles. Yes, monks are a big weakness. And yes, Battle Elephants are not going to make up the bulk of your long-term army.

But that doesn’t mean they’re useless, or that they should be avoided entirely. Or that, once you have them, you shouldn’t upgrade them, especially in ways that overlap with your other elephant units.

That’s absolutely not your point. Your point was an 170 HP Dravidians BE (68%) is better than 217 HP Bengalis BE (68%).

No… :expressionless:

My point is that they are equal. If both units can kill the same unit while retaining the same percentage of HP, then they are functionally equivalent. Otherwise the whole concept of using HP percentages to compare would be meaningless, and there would be no way to compare units at all.

Another equally accurate way to say it would be that Bengali elephants excel at short, violent fights, while Dravidian elephants excel at more prolonged skirmishes.

But that doesn’t take anything away from the fundamental point. If both units can kill the same unit with the same percentage of their HP remaining, then the two are functionally interchangeable, and can reasonably be called equal.

Essentially, my point is that you can’t compare a Bengali elephant with all its bonuses, to a Dravidian elephant, but ignoring one of its main bonuses. That’s just not an accurate representation of reality.

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Again, they are not.

Except that won’t be the case in the long run. And regeneration is supposed to be better in the long run.

You are missing a fundamental element of the game as well as math. After your regeneration when both civs BE has 68% HP, Dravidians BE has 175 HP vs Bengalis 217. Now after another Halb, Dravidians will have 55 HP (22%) and Bengalis will have 112 HP (35%). Give Dravidians another 46 seconds to regenerate up to 88 HP (35%) and let them fight a 3rd halb. Dravidians will die while Bengalis will survive with 8 HP. So even after taking yor time to heal Dravidians will never be equal when you are using percentage of HP.

Boys, you’re both pretty.

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This is like telling someone who is getting Hoang rushed to just boom and ignore military.

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Ok just get your point straight. Are you suggesting Dravidians should do a lot of elephants and use them as main army or just use them for defense? If you’re suggesting they do it in large numbers thats suggesting it as main army. It makes zero sense to produce 20 or 30 elephants and keep producing more for defense. And making an expensive unit that doesn’t get any upgrades in imperial age is also terrible. Either way there’s no reason for Dravidians to produce more than a couple of battle elephants.

An investment is good if its something that can fetch you returns. Investing a lot into Dravidian battle elephants will fetch you zero returns. Its just a waste of resources.

Conceptually fighting for map control is necessary which is why I argued against your suggestion of walling bonus as well but Battle elephants DONOT give you any map control. You don’t have any mobility, you cant force fights and you don’t have any conversion resistance.

If something is very expensive to afford early on and is also not feasible as the main army long term and is also very slow and vulnerable in mid stages, why on earth would you make a lot of them? You know why it practically makes no sense to do Battle elephants and yet you’re suggesting they shouldn’t be avoided entirely. That’s like implying you have to do the non-sensical move, which is basically called a “throw”. Any eco advantage or lead gained with the early wood bonuses will be gone. Much better to give up map control for the time being, hit imp sooner and regain it with bracer, halbs and trebbing down enemy castles instead of wasting it on battle elephants that practically add no value.

First of all both are not equal, but both are terrible unit choices for 1v1. Bengali ones are probably slightly more usable (still not practical) because they take less bonus damage, are resistant to conversion for FREE and have husbandry and get good monks to defend early on. What you’re doing is like a comparison between Gurjara spearmen and Turk spearmen in imperial age. Whether they are “equal” or “equivalent” or whatever, doesn’t matter. Because neither of those are going to be produced.

The fundamental point is Battle elephants are useless and don’t belong in 1v1. Both units can kill the same unit in a Mikeempires video, not in a practical game. Because they don’t belong in competitive games.


@DemiserofD I feel that people either not reading into your argument or just too stubborn. you have brought up some very valid point and I do agree with you on most part, aside maybe the LOS.

perhaps they could gain husbandry instead but that might make the light cav. too powerful.

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This I have said before is all the buff the civ needs.

Does not turn them into a cavalry civ, but stops them being slow as hell, and gives them one decent raiding option.

We don’t need more weird civ bonuses in random directions, just a small touch-up to the tech tree.

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with just light cav might actually be ok to get husbandry. the power spike only really happen after castle + expensive UT is researched, which may not really be that much of a power spike at all.

in late imp no last armor upgrade so horses can still be kite by archers, or even skirms deal decent damage. assuming a civ with max 6P damage skirm, dealing 2 damage on drav’s light cav that has low HP ceiling isn’t so bad.

i actually want new civ bonuses but thats just me but only the good part of it. dont want all the bugs/crash coming in, and also bad pathing all over again