Dutch need some love

It would. Not only for Dutch, but for Germans too.
The onlt Mercenary civ taht does not need a second Saloon, is Swedes.

All Europe doesn’t have to be like the Swedes. Especially, Dutch usually use units that require a lot of coins. Coin will not be enough to be invested for mercenaries unless it is a special case.

I never suggested this.
It is a shame that Swedes completely too over the “Mercenary civ” tag, by just being outright better at it than all other Mercenary civs, though.

Best Economy and can spam Mercs from normal buildings, is way over the top.

Do you realize how many villager seconds 1 settler is worth?
7 settler start would make a massive difference to the early game allowing Dutch to get units out much more smoothly if they get rushed, maybe it could even be too strong.
Same with crate starts because it saves several vill seconds and this makes a huge difference when getting an extra 2 skirmishers or an extra hussar out early.
The 12/10 build from France isn’t even viable anymore because they took 50 food from their crate start.
50w or 100 coin is much more efficient as it saves several vill seconds.
My argument for wood is that the time vills spend gathering 50 wood could be time spent gathering much more coin or food, with the coin bonus Dutch vills get that is almost 100 coin that vills can gather instead since vills gathering wood so much slower than other ressources.

Your suggestion seems to be believing that the Dutch can all be resolved as long as they reach 2ages quickly. I don’t think so at all (as I said earlier, Dutch have the fastest 2age up speed), so I don’t think your suggestion is for the real Dutch.

If I’m not read your intentions, would you give me a reason to why do so, and if not, explain what would be the benefit for the Dutch if 2age up was faster than it is now?

Well, I jumped from vanilla to DE directly, and I never played TAD.

What surprised me the most, is that on DE you start with 1 less vills than on Vanilla, and instead you have the free bank card age 2.

So, idk if giving dutch that +1 vill at start would be OP or not, it never was a problem before. It allow dutch to age at 2.10-2.20 and then they don’t suffer early pressure too much.

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Interesting how things changed so much from vanilla.
I would like to see what top players would think about that.
I personally would like a change like that as it would make dutch early game smoother, not just because of the age up time, but the extra vill seconds can really come in handy when getting extra batches of units early on.
I know that on the esoc patch they already tried to make the banks cheaper and later on they had to reverse the change because it made dutch too strong.

So compared to eco houses.
What is bank’s advantage.

Even we are not mentioning Dutch villager cost gold.

Banks are resilient, easy to hide in the back of the Town, can be rebuilt and provide infinite Coin.
They are actually very strong, and were the best Economic bonus of any civ, unbtil The Asian Dynasties dropped and introduced Japanses Shrines, which are better.

Banks are not the issue, they are actually a bit too good, and have to be balanced with lower Settler limits.
Gathering Houses are the issue, because they are better Banks, and Dutch lost it’s edge because of them.

After all, what you say or what I say is no different. Whether the Dutch have an additional 50w, or the bank’s price goes to 300w, Dutch must take 150w to have their first bank. However, if the price is discounted by the bank rather than an additional box, second and third banks can also continue to benefit the Dutch. Wood is a difficult resource to harvest. That is why most civilizations entering the 2age will receive a 700w box as their first card.

According to my suggestion, you only need 150w as you said when building your first bank. Then when you build the second bank, you can build a house right away without having to wait for 700w or collect an additional 50w.(Probably what you intended is similar so far.) After receiving 700w, the third bank is built, and the remaining 400w gives Dutch more room to build barracks, houses, markets, or add a fourth bank, without wood treasure or extra wood.

By the way, simply +50w does not give Dutch a choice after receiving 700w. Am I wrong?

For your information, I have reported that the thread of your last line was completely mocking me.

To destroy it, civilizations dealing with Dutch do not give them time to build a bank and immediately enter the 3age. That’s why most of Dutch are rushing into the 3ages.

And even if the Dutch have successfully built 5 banks, if they cannot stop the settler boom from 3TC last game, they will lose due to economic power. That’s why treaty complains that the Dutch economy is weak. So for late game and treaty, banking efficiency should be added to the 5age upgrade.

Dutch already get more Banks with the last Coin upgrde from the Capitol.
There is not much more one can do to Dutch banks, rather it is the Gathering Houses that need a nerf.

Banks are fine.

Dont get me wrong, I personally would prefer cheaper banks as well.
But I dont think the devs will make that change as it has already been done on the esoc patch and people were complaining that dutch was too strong, so they reversed the bank cost as the civ was pretty much dominating the tournaments.
Regarding the last line, that’s fine. If you keep wrongly assuming that I am saying things or meaning things dont expect for me to just sit here and take it.

Whoa there … Vet Halbs are very good in 1vs1 vs lakota and germans. Leave them alone.

Minimal changes as stated above:

  • 100extra gold or one extra vil;
  • Transform the Dutch India Company in a age 4 card like Tulip speculation;
  • Up the vil count to 60 max.
  • (optional, give them a 6 vet. musk shipment - Blau guards that can cost resources, or a fusilier) shipment)

U definitely got my attention there.
I had some success using halbs vs Germany but didn’t think they could be useful vs lakota too.


They shut down any cav harassment as well.

Banks are not overwhelming enough to change their balance to -50w. As I keep saying, banks will lose their efficiency as much as they enter the next era and market upgrades or royal mints are completed.

What if the Dutch India Company card is an age 2 politician instead?

Doesn’t really work because the 400w politician will still be better than just making banks 15% cheaper.
If anything it will make dutch early game even slower.

Dutch are weak in the early game. Then decently strong late colonial-fortress, then weak again late fortress. Then strong mid-late fortress. Then weak Imperial.

This roughly matches the beats of:

  • Spending all resources on banks early game. (Weak)
  • Having Banks up and a very strong economy (Strong)
  • Other civs catching up because of the 50 vil pop limit (Weak)
  • Safe Gold Mines run out, and Dutch can have a larger military (Strong)
  • The weaker max Imperial eco starts to blow. (Weak)

That makes it really complicated to buff Dutch, because you don’t want them to be too strong, and their power is like a roller coaster over the game.

One thing they can do is to do something with the treaty level lategame. E.g. the Capital building gold upgrade gives dutch more villager max pop. Also they could look at the Bank of Amsterdam/Rotterdam Cards, since these are mostly never sent in Supremacy. What if they were buffed and made into age 3/4 cards: “Buy the Bank of Rotterdam 1k coin: increase bank limit by 1, villager limit by 5, and ship a bank wagon and 5 villagers.” etc. So there is a lategame way to boost eco that doesn’t affect 1v1 that is cool and thematic.