Mayans and Incas lack Halberdiers. Incas already have Kamayuk to fill in the role.
El Dorado adds +20 HP to infantry units. Since Mayans already lack Champion and Supplies, their Champions are still worse than Viking ones. El Dorado additionally adds +10 HP to eagle units. Net 10 HP loss for Eagle units.
Another possible change can be to Fabric Shields (Incas Imperial UT): +1/+2 armor for all infantry units. No change on Eagles and Kamayuks. Slingers bit weaker but they shouldn’t be receiving damage ideally. Standard Barracks infantry gets stronger filling in the theme of Infantry Civilization.
This would make them vastly better vs mesos (v eagles)
And im not sure about the ramifications of nerfing their trash war by removing the halb. Even if the pike gets more hp it does 50% less damage vs everything that isn’t cav
I think the incan one is ok
But i dont see why or how you think you can do these sweeping changes without breaking something… Its one thing to theory craft an extra 5 or 10hp…this is on another level (as usual)
you do know that every civ that doesn’t have halb has some form of either attack bonus on their pikes, a unique unit who does bonus damage to cavalry, or camels right?
the civs in question are
Aztecs (who have pikes with +4 attack, and massed up faster)
Berbers (who have 20% cheaper camels who regenerate)
Italians (who have the genoese crossbowman)
Malians (who have camels with farimba)
Mongols (who have camels)
Saracens (who have camels with lots of bonuses)
Turks (who have camels)
Vikings (who have pikes with extra health and a UT that gives all infantry extra attack vs cavalry).
taking away Halbs from Mayans would severely nerf them against heavy cavalry civs. and the loss of squires? man you really want Mayans to stink.
I think he just doesn’t see the utility tradeoff we mention with our proposals in the long run.
El dorado is so abnoxious because eagles soft counter heavy cav then and have insane mibility. The tradeoff for a bit less power and mobility we propose is a much stronger lategame frontline. 85 hp pikes are insanely strong as frontline against heavy cav.
i see what you wrote, and what you wrote heavily nerfs them against cavalry civs. period.
every single civ that only has pikes, has some form of attack bonus for those pikes, or a unique unit who does bonus damage to cavalry, or camels. that is a fact. if you’re gonna knock them down to pikes only, you’re gonna have to find a way to give mayans a fighting chance against cavalry.
doesn’t matter, a lot of cavalry civs mix in skirms to handle pikes, so that isn’t going to be that advantageous. and furthermore, while they will survive an extra 2 hots from paladins, they still only deal 1 extra attack back. and given they lose a total of 12 damage an attack by losing the halb upgrade… not to mention that you want to slow them down even further.
furthermore, what would Mayans do against say - Sicilian Cavaliers?
It doesn’t work like this… They are extremely useful in lategame fights, they can take so much more ranged fire and buy so much more time in all scenarios. They are trush, they are supposed to be a meatshield with the utility to kill cav, 85 hp pikes are so much more valueable than fu halbs in almost all scenarios.
In messi lategame fights there are also never 1v1 situations, so the special scenario you mentioned won’t occur in like 99% of all games.
85 hp pikes can fear any cav as much away as fu halbs i can tell you, nobody would ever take this engangement… So with this in mind you see, 85 hp pikes are more valueable than fu halbs ;).
I think even there the 85 hp pikes would still deal a lot of damage until the cavaliers can engange the backline. And plumed archers on their own aren’t that bad against cavaliers, they can trade very well with decent micro. Also 100 hp champs can trade very efficient against cavaliers. They have many options against that then.
except vs heavy cavalry, because they won’t be doing as much damage. have fun fighting those sicilian cavaliers when you’re doing a whole 14 damage a shot.
14 damage a shot. at 3 seconds attack speed. while cavaliers are doing 13 damage a shot and attack at 1.8 speed.
plumes literally do 3 damage a shot to cavalier. meaning they are going to need 44 shots to kill one.
Mayans don’t get champs, what are you talking about? and they don’t get supplies either so HFWT. and they also wouldn’t get Squires after your change, so good luck with those fights.
Have you played the game ever or you are coming here after readinh wiki.
In your opinion, a 20 HP buff to pikemen is useless since Skirmishers counter them easily but a +4 attack of Aztecs is meaningful. In presence of Skirmishers, extra HP is more important than extra attack, just as it is the case with melee vs ranged units.
What do Turks and Mongols do against Sicilian Cavaliers?
aztecs also get +4 attack on their eagles, who also have bonus damage against cavalry. point is, if you’re gonna knock them down to just pike you have to either give them bonus damage on those pikes in some form, or give them a unique unit who does bonus damage to cavalry, or give them camels, as per what every other civ in the game has.
Heavy Camels who literally have 55 more health then your pikes, move faster then pikes, and deal almost as much damage (15 camels vs 16 for pikes) while also attacking faster then pikes.
either way, you guys are the ones who are trying to change something that has been standard in this game since it started.
and cost almost twice as much… and gold! 2 85 hp pikes have much more hp and dps than your camels.
Pikes and Halbs never were pop efficient against heavy cav.
You could make the same comparison with halbs, if looked from this point of view they all seem terrible. But we all know, they’re not.
and you’re making it worse for mayans. literally the only civ without some form of either attack bonus on their pikes, a uu who does bonus damage to cavalry, or having camels.
Mayans are one of the best civs against heavy cav. Maybe you should focus more in playing than in exaggerating one sided point of views.
And if you do so you will find out, that my proposed changes don’t nerf them against heavy cav.