El dorado needs a nerf as it is too powerful (or gold cost increase)

With the +40 hit points the eagle warriors become a cavalier that can be countered with militia line, but because the militia are really slow, they really aren’t countered by them. Handcannoneer can’t deal against such high hp on infantry and their infantry bonus is useless. The elite warriors have bonus against siege so siege doesn’t counter them like they should (and because of their mobility they can dodge/scorpions deals them pierce damage and they have 8 pierce armor) and castle or tower arrows deals nothing to them. And they have arson, something knights don’t have. And they have bonus against cavalry, camel and basically everything except militia line that does nothing to them as they can’t chase them. And their cost compared to a cavalier is low.
While the knights are countered by monk, the eagle warriors counter monk too and with such high hp they can just engage and snipe kill the monk and retreat with no risk because they have high pierce armor too.
2 elite eagle warriors with el dorado can kill a frank paladin. Perfectly normal?

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Yes, they are good but not as hard to counter as you say

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What are their counter except the militia line?

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Hand cannoneers, slingers, any infantry UU that isn’t a kamayuk/condotierro, plumed archers (yup, u almost never see eagles in Mayan mirrors) any cav better than generic cavalier (pop-efficency). And walling your eco.

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Yesterday i played Slavs vs Mayans on golden swamp. The game went to imperial age. I went mass Champions. The mayan player went for Plumes, Eagles and Scorps (he knew i go full champs). He was already waiting for me. It was an easy whipe of the Mayan player. I forgot to make siege in time and was pop capped, so i just started to take down his castle with champs. Pretty easy win. The eagles didnt felt strong. I agree it was slavs. Not all civs got Champs, but they will have other possible units to go for. @CactusSteak2171 already post about it.

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do you guys even read the topic or just the title?
Hand cannoneers can’t counter such huge hp or speed, they don’t even counter huskarls because of the speed. Eagles aren’t countered by archers, lmao. Frank paladin is the strongest knight line and they lose against 2 el dorado eagles. Walling you eco, again, he has arson. Slinger of 1 civ? What infantry uu can beat them with their slow speed? They are in the same position of champs. Same number will beat them but you can’t beat them if they out run you.

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I said i destroyed mayan player with just champs. Pretty easy. The Mayan player had also plumes and scorps, both are counter to Champs. It was still an easy win.

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well I’d remind you that Elite Eagles+ El Dorado cost 1550 food and 950 gold, thats almost the same cost as cavalier+Paladin. Sure it takes much less time to upgrade that but the reason the EEW rush works is the speed with the early imp spike. Stone walls with archers/scorps/ hand cannoneers in the back stop them in the track so if you see that the Mayan player can’t do much with the archers in castle age against you, its easy to see the eagle switch in the imp coming. And its not good if the Mayan player invests all this gold and loses the momentum

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Wasn’t there already a thread about El Dorado? Why make a new one? Also why are you all the time making these suggestions to game balance when it is somewhat evident that you are not yet knowledgeable enough to make them?

Hand cannoneers do counter them but hand cannons enjoy a meatshield in front of them very much. Of course if you only make hand cannons and let a melee unit reach them, they’ll take losses. And since they aren’t 100% accurate unlike archers, it’s somewhat harder to hit and run with them (which they can still do however) but of course against an eagle that is a fast moving unit it’s not as easy, so you’ll want to use something cheap in the front, or even a gold unit as a champion (or 2h) which is a counter itself too.

Also Frank paladin losing to 2 eagles, so what? The 2 eagles cost more gold and more total resources. And that cost is true even for non-el dorado eagles, which do not fair as good. Besides, teuton paladin is the new god, not the french.

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Unbelievable really. Mayans plumes counter your champs if he micros even a little.

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archers and scorps don’t counter them, stop suggesting nonsense. 30 cav archers can’t one shot them with a volley.

Look what they do:
make a hole in your wall with a ram or find a hole, you can’t expect there to be always no hole, and boom you are finished, your eco is finished, your units are finished. Your castle does nothing to them, your archers does nothing to them, champs can’t chase them (and even japanese champs lose against them 2 vs 1) and you are basically dead.

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Why would you assume that this is a good comparison in any way? Champs (after supplies) cost less gold (20 vs 50) and less total resources than eagles (65 vs 70). Any unit’s going to look good when you magically double their numbers for no reason. But in any realistic match, even generic champs shred eagles, cost and pop effectively. The challenge is in engaging with more limited mobility, but it’s not that difficult with good base design.

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It isn’t a good example but it was to point that if they raid your eco and you have champions around to defend, if they raid in 2 or more, they can take the champ and raid.

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Do you think that a fully upgraded line of my combination against his plumes is free? Not only i have to invest in mobility to match him, but also upgrade champion line. Mayans have more lasting resources which means they have the resource to produce.

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I dont know why he still making this threads. I hope he sees most people disagree with most of his ideas. In one of his threads i gave him some advice about counter units. He thinks such advice is off topic and inappropriate to give.

Have you ever think about using 2 or more champs to defend against eagles?

Champs if microed a bit can easily counter Eagles too. That is what i would call ‘Unbelievable’!

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Champs already counter eagle, read the thread again. I wrote it. They even have bonus against them. While they counter it, eagle speed (they have almost the same speed as knights) permits them to escape. Even if they can run, i can still kill some with champs but with el dorado? Nope, 95% will be fine. You can’t micro units against units that run away and you are slower than them.

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The name of El Dorado is for Inca or Muisca actually, so it will be good to change to a really Maya-related name. If someday Muisca may be introduced as a new American civ, this name can be used.

Well, off-topic.

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Off-topic indeed, but true. Seems like the devs could have done a little more research into Mayans. The original Forgotten castle UT, IIRC was Tlahtoani, which is an Aztec word. And I’ve always thought obsidian arrows was kind of silly. Ah well, just Age of Empires 2 things.

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Yes, El Dorado eagles are incredibly strong and can defo win you matches you shouldnt win. It could be nerfed to 30 HP and still would be very good. I wouldnt mind that.
But the fact that eagles are gold intense also means, that holding and stalling with champs is sth you can very much do, until he runs out of gold. In most cases mayans (or inca, aztecs are better off with Atlatl skirms and faster production) are doomed then due to the lack of cavalry trash units.

OP has made a bunch of retarded topics, in this one he actually has an argument.
But due to the lack of cavalry Meso civs/Eagles are simply incredibly hard to balance. They are in an ok position atm, probably still a tad too strong in early imp.

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+30 HP and +2 attack vs cavalry.
A little nerf but keeping useful. At least it can be defeated by Aztec eagles, the true origin of the eagle warriors.

Not only Mayans. There shall be a way to keep the entertaining and improve the historic in the beginning of civ designing.

For me, I might set a unique monk units for Mayans castle UU, and set the Maya calendar for the UT. The plumed archer sounds quite unreal. No mention the bows Mesoamerican natives made were very primeval and bad. Off-topic again.

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