here’s the issue, their view is that the pro scene attracts new players in, regardless of it never being exactly the case
i do recall stuff like ai scripting competitions that ensemble organized back in the day, and other similar competitions as well
the competitive scene was never the definitive carrying force like some claim, and like aoe4 devs seem to believe
to add to this, its never safe or healthy long term to rely on just 1 thing like relic seems to atm
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nice point! yeah, modding competitions (with improved modding tools, better dev communication, and serious updates to the essence editor) would be an awesome way to engage the modding community.
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that would require basically unrestricted file access first and foremost, serious rework of the editor itself, getting mod formatting to smt that isn’t tuning packs and, for competitions, some prize money, but i highly doubt any of this will occur, the managers in charge are just too detached to understand any of this
AoE2 disagrees on this point. The community of competitive players and FE modders (who benefited casuals and competitive players, not just casuals) were key to keeping the game and the scene alive.
The 12 pillars of an AoE are usually these:
- Balanced gameplay.
- Variety of units and strategies.
- Solid AI.
- High-quality graphics and sound
- Attractive historical period.
- Solid Online multiplayer and Stability.
- Support for mods.
- Ongoing updates and balance.
- Intuitive user interface.
- Strong single-player campaign.
- Accessibility to new players.
- More social gameplay.
- Adequate performance and optimization.
I don’t think we have to invent the wheel in this sense.
There is not much more. Mod support is one of the most important within those 12 pillars.
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indeed, but modding part of the equation is badly neglected in 4, and there are few other pillars above that aoe4 isn’t necessarily delivering on, multiplayer needs a stability patch for one, AI is hopefully passable with season 6, UI has been talked to death on all the areas that lack polish, the rest tho seems to be there except for very noticable input lag problems on optimization end of things
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I think what is important to note is that modding tools, which are essential in this genre, are an expectation of which the AoE4 developers got extremely lazy with. Although you get a lot of good mods from skilled folks out there through said tools, the ease of access always allowed people to get into modding or to spend their time casually messing with the game when not playing. In essence, it was part of content that these games delivered, through sandbox.
AoE4’s efforts into esports clearly show a level of dedication that does not benefit the casual anywhere close to the same degree that proper modding tools would. I’m sure there are a lot of people watching these competitions, and good for them. But, that is all that is. Watching. They aren’t actually playing the game. As far as I’m concerned, they skimped out on the cheese on my sandwich so they could pay for celebrities to show up on their ad.
And honestly? I don’t care for celebrities. If they spent even a quarter of the money they do in esports into modding, it would give players a lot of the lacking functionality that this game is missing. Whatever attempt they made towards creating a modding tool initially was clearly just them dragging their feet just to do the bare minimum.
And in my opinion, they haven’t gotten nearly enough flack over that yet. There should be more pressure from the community on this matter, but things are looking grim with their perpetual layoffs on just about every important part of this game’s development.
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pretty much, recently watched spirit of the law’s review of the new dlc, i’m happy he addressed the state of the game at the end of it, what he said had to be said at some point, hopefully someone this big is taken seriously behind the scenes
good review btw strongly recommending, imo the only one not shilling for relic
to quote what was said:“aoe2 DE had better mods within 2 weeks of release than aoe4 in almost 2 years”
and the worst part is, its not the modders fault thats the case
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That video had me laughing from the reaction of people. His video covered mostly a casual brief overview of the DLC, noting massive issues that still plagued the game, and in a shameful display of our community, Spirit was attacked from the literal AoE4 biggest streamer and his minions, just because Spirit didn’t go over details or explain the intricate difference between civilizations.
It isn’t that they don’t get the point of the video. They just don’t care. The lack of interest from these individuals to cater to the core casual AoE audience is heavily wounding this game and its future. That has been the case from day one. You can’t have detailed graphics, immersion, good UI, good effects, detailed unit models, you can’t have modding tools or decent marketing; because all of these things harm the game according to them.
They say that detailed graphics, immersion and effects hurts readability, that lighting or rotating buildings or environmental effects does as well. That UI can’t have details and needs to be simple, unit models and environment can’t be detailed for lest it hurts performance, that devs shouldn’t add civilizations because it hurts the game’s suppoused divine balance, and that any money spent on actual marketing or modding is wasted because it should all be served on a plate to the same 10 individuals. Coincidentally, these people playing esports for a living who will bounce off the moment another RTS offers prize pools of this proportion.
I for one still await basic features as a customer to be injected into this game, and I would love for them to direct that income into finishing this beta of a project they call a product.
Modding is just the tip of the iceberg. But, it needs to be actually addressed. Hilarious how CoH3, a project closer to their interests, has had more developer communication in its short lifespan than AoE4 has had in almost two years. They’re totally playing fair with this game.
There is no community manager, there is no face to this developer team. And they are entirely content with that.
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and who would that streamer be? Beasty with this stans or someone else, can’t be bothered to follow any aoe esports
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EDIT: watch from 11h, 16m and 24s
well, pretty typical SCII top league behaviour, being biased AF and out of touch with what the not your main game actually represents to people that aren’t you, him going after sotl simply proves how credible sotl is in comparison
the only reason beasty is here even is microsofts prize pools, take that away and he’s gone in that very instant, same for marine lord, demuslim and others
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AoE4 has been bleeding content creators, modders and players because of lack of interest or support. AoE2 in contrast has lost players for mostly other reasons (like recently Nili, struggling with income). There is a facade with AoE4, a game everyone wants to play and pretend that everything is fine and dandy. You’re not suppoused to speak against it.
But, people outside of the AoE4 community tend to see right through this fog, and I am glad that Spirit has as well. I think AoE4 has a tremendous amount of potential, always have. But, it still needed lots of more effort in many departments, and players enabling the developers to get lazy is what is going to get this game killed. Pretending that everything is fine, because mr top gamer who doesn’t give a shit, says so, is and has always been the issue.
I also find it so hypocritical. It is bias for Spirit to speak against AoE4, but not bias for these guys to pretend AoE4 has no issues, while also cashing in on every tournament whose money could’ve otherwise been spent finishing development.
EDIT: If anyone reads my posts and wonder what any of this has to do with the thread, I just want to note that I think the situation around modding is a small part of a larger issue, and that they are connected in a way that I think is important to highlight. Hope this clears that up.
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the thing with top players in aoe4 is they see only 2 things: the prize pool money and themselves, nothing else
people like them will never touch smt like the editors cuz they’re ultimately only good at clicking fast and clicking right things ingame
also remember demuslim’s tone deaf take on aoe3, the game he never even tried, how can he know its bad if he never played it to begin with, thats how out of touch it was
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BeastyQT has talked shit about AoE3 too. My favorite: “Why should AoE4 take anything from AoE3 when AoE3 was less successful.” He says this as he’s playing Ottomans. I see even more AoE3 sprinkled all over Sultans too.
His latest comment he compared 3DEs graphics to Minecraft and they don’t look very “AoE” to him.
Totally insufferable crowd.
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I agree with all your points for aoe2, but could you clarify what point I made that aoe2 disagrees with?
I do agree that mods for aoe2, especially graphic mods, are usable during competitive play and thus benefit competitive players. But, the way mods are set up for aoe4, limited to only 1 Game Mode and 1 Tuning Pack, I don’t think these can be used in ranked matches (please correct me if I’m wrong). So this is why I made the point that mods currently benefit the casual community of aoe4. I’d love for this to be changed and for there to be a third option for purely graphical mods for units, buildings, biomes, UI etc for aoe4. But it doesn’t seem like that was considered by the devs.
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The problem is, I find, what goes around comes around. People have been saying the same the other way about IV. Still do, in some places. People were predicting IV would die a horrific death, and attempted to prove it with Steam player numbers for months on end.
Turns out, all that does it breed more antagonism to throw back the other way. None of it is constructive, neither side, any side.
But hey. None of this is new. We even see it in this thread. People attempting to hijack the topic for their own pet peeves. Beasty’s doing the same. Doesn’t make him right, either. But it’s a human thing to do, to build these walls, to protect what we individually see as good.
This thread is a focal point; another boiling over of stuff that missed the mark. I get that. But I’m also a modder, I’ve been on the same Discord as ####### / the OP has for ages (forum still censors his name, wild). But it strikes me as pretty damn funny when we have other posters going round and round about the tools who have never made anything. Never visited the Discord. Never saw how the devs have helped us (despite the lack of product focus on the Content Editor itself). Never understood literally anything about modding except using it as a beating stick to attack the devs with.
Maybe that’s what’s actually driving me here, I don’t know. And none of that paragraph there is aimed at you, for sure. I started with the “what goes around comes around” bit and it spiralled from there 
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There are 2 types of users for the most part:
-
The one who says everything is fine and they should hardly change anything, the game needs hardly any improvements and is fine as it is.
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The “doomer” who says that there are a lot of things in the game that are more bad than good at the moment because of its lousy release 2 years ago (rarely highlights anything positive), or criticizes the game for things that have already been fixed because they haven’t played the game yet.
Then there are grayscale and users that, while we see a progression in the game from launch, there are still several important things to refine and should be addressed with priority as we also highlight the things that the devs do well. In other words, we give feedback with respect, we are critical but we value the positive things in the game.
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Microsoft just bought Blizzard. As soon as Blizzard makes Starcraft 3 with bigger tournaments and larger cash prize pools, pro gamers like BeastyQT will be gone in a flash leaving aoe4 in the dust. They won’t stick around long term. So, Worlds Edge needs to start planning for what aoe4 will look like if/when that happens.
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I would also like to see it changed. It is one of my proposals.
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