English armors suggestions

The “Dark Ages” is an heavily politicized, though academically accepted, name for the period between the fall of Rome and the High Middle Ages.
Though the term was coined by Renaissance artists and politicains, to wrongly imply they were far ascended from more primitive ancestors, the name still sticks in popular culture and Academia, and has some relevance because of the general political and border instability of the timeframe.

However, in terms of technological innovation, social reform, and humans rights abuses, the “Dark Ages” were actually far more bright than the “Enlightenment”, at time.
Many of the worst chapters in Western History, such as Chatel Slavery, Witch Hunts, Genocidal wars, and Religious Suppression of Science, actually happened during the Renaissance and the proceding Enlightenment Eras, even though Hollywoodesque pop-culture would tell you they were part of the Dark Ages.

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Hey, don’t go underselling us Scandinavians. We had chattel slavery during the dark ages way before those filthy continentals. Europe was so disorganized at the time that all they could do was suppress their own populations instead of going on the hunt, slackers I call them.

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@AndyPXIII
My bad!

Which was somewhat ironic as the Franks/French is perhaps the only civ that can have a historically consistent unique unit over most of AoE II timeframe, i.e. heavy cavalryman, introduced in the Frankish armies as early as the 8th century/Carolingian era and still famous by the Renaissance.
For most civs it’s an utter flaw to the longer progression I suggested. Either we would end having anachronisms like English longbowmen in Alfred’s time or have to wait until age IV or V for the unique unit to be available, which would harm gameplay.

From the Dark Age prehistoric shelters to the fine beautiful Imperial Age architecture, things could differ greatly though. For example the Middle Eastern set’s buildings looked very different from Feudal Age to Castle Age despite remaining similar in shape. Maybe that is the compromise to look for: similar shape but very different “finishing”.

I totally share that uncanny valley impression otherwise, which also concerns other aspects of the game such as the fortification system (falling between AoE II classic system and that of Stronghold series).

@JonOli12
With the fall of the Roman Empire and subsequent Barbarian migrations, much of Western Europe went from a mostly urban and civil society to a rural and clanic one, with all the changes that it implies: regression of architecture, science & co, diffusion of violence, etc. Germanic settlers in Gaul may even have reintroduced human sacrifices or female infanticide that had faded away for centuries. Europe had to wait for what some call the “Carolingian Renaissance” to progressively start its civilizational recovery (which would again crumble into feudalism with the fall of the Frankish empire and Viking attacks). So, although the “Dark Age” is indeed an exaggerated and outdated ideological vision of that era, we can’t deny it coincided with some regression in terms of civilization.

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You talk about abstractions, that were deliberately made for the appearance of the Units in the respective period. But then i tell you, that Relic should adhere to her own guidelines. They did not do that, the example of the Dehli sultanate shows it by using armor from Central Asian peoples like turkmen or persians, which were used in later centuries than the middle ages. The developer wants to represent the full extent of the Middle ages, then he should please stick to his own guidelines everywhere, if he will be believable.

Armors in particular are visually striking, and should come from the Middle ages and not from later Time ages or even from other Peoples, that they used. The fact, as described and proven in the topics of @PalumbusRex, that they use armaments from Later ages for all presented Peoples, and in some cases of across People like the Mongolians and the Chinese, is simply a botch work and nothing else. Such abnormalities will be much more harm than good for the game. Your argument of conscious abstraction as a umbrella for the Middle age of the optical representation from all peoples, does no longer applies in this case.

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When I talk about how civs are designed in Age of Empires, I am speaking based on the existing games in the franchise and not based on Relic’s decisions. Relic is free to design their civs however they please, and we are free to decide for ourselves whether they successfully designed an Age of Empires game.

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Awesome sketches mind if I take few and work it on for my personal game project?

My criticism of their statements on the abstract design of civilizations related to the matter itself, not to Relic’s decisions. But Relic’s decisions regarding the game make up the game itself, so your splitting up of the criticism is meaningless.

Of course yes, Relic is free to choose, how they want to shape their civilizations. Whether we like it or not, is up to us.

It appears that I just had a discussion about Delhi equipments with a friend who knows arms & armors of that region well. The archer I spotted is actually more likely to be based upon artwork from the end of Akbar’s reign such as the miniatures from Akbarnama (1592-1594). It may be a bit late for AoE IV timeframe but doesn’t exceed it and I don’t think there are better sources for Indo-Islamic armors. The more I look at it the more I like it really.
The countless Persian miniatures could still be used IMO as much of Persia, India, Central Asia, etc. shared the same equipment style which is often called “Indo-Persian”.

@bigbossbro08
Sure, btw I can’t really claim credit for them as they are largely based upon drawings and photos I used to get accurate proportions. May I ask what kind of game your project is?

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but these abstarctions were always amde in age games, or am I wrong there?

In old Age of Empires parts was certainly worked more precisely regarding the abstractions, than what we have seen so far in Age of Empires 4. I hope, that Relic handle this matter even better until to the release.

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Oh yes, that would be interesting to see, if the responsible forum members could go into it in more detail and show such examples for the Mongols and Chinese.

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Age games are based on history but all close calls should be ruled in favor of gameplay.

The clothing and gear of units in Age games are no different. Our units play certain functions and it’s critical that a unit’s visuals communicate certain gameplay information , such as the type of unit (infantry, priest, villager, ranged) and what its role is (anti-infantry, anti-ranged, anti-cav, all-around, etc.). The shield, weapon, or armor of a unit should perfectly match specific era of history if possible, but only so far as doing so does not hurt gameplay.

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I’m working on Stronghold like RTS game except you can switch between RTS and Third Person. Planning for going open world approach.

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Bannerlord crosses with Stronghold

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Interestingly, if you English get early access to the swordsman line or ‘man-at-arms’ equivalent in the dark age. Reading their Civ bonus states as much. Which means this is a unit designed to be in Feudal age, and then switched to dark age for gameplay reasons. One could hope for an downgraded or upgraded visual, but perhaps it is meant to reflect on more capable and well equiped infantry for the English player in this time? OP may have something to say about the historical relevance of this… I know the peasants defending with bows is a nod to the English requirement of all citizens having to practice archery, and I suspect early swordsman is also a nod to early infantry prowness? It does explain why your anachronisms could occur, and would make good feedback for the devs to include the dark-age variant to be differently modelled to its feudal age equivalent (although that might come with some confusion for two different models for 1 unit)

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I do believe 2 Models would be possible only If the dark age Special Units would have different names to avoid confusion. Like dark age Maa. But that would a) Sound stupid and b) have to be done for alot of Units. Each civ seems to have at least some Unit an age earlier.

If they were to implement that IT would feel cooler though, i damit that

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And do you guys think they would come with lower stats in earlier age? Like in aoe3 second age dutch skirm is not third age veteran level.
(Btw i think its clumsy that scouts become stronger in the second age instantly, without any upgrades and no change in the units name. I understand its necessity in balance, but I hope they come up with a better solution in aoe4.)

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From the phrasing in the Preview Infos i doubt they will have lieber stats.

Nen at Arms one age early is quite specific. Unless aging Up Generally Provides a Bonus to units

I agree, it is clumsy how scouts in aoe2 do that. It’d be okay with a simple graphical update in feudal, so that the person could instantly see the difference. Call it ‘Feudal scout’ or whatever, but yes, I agree, as far as Age4 goes, lets hope we don’t see as many clumsy stat modifiers with no such visual indication of them happening! haha

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What are everyone’s current views on men-at-arms design? Personally, I think and I would like some redesign, perhaps through a mod, to further exploit the transitional aspect of the Anglo-Norman era (1070-1170) to the stage of Henry III in which the English kingdom had successfully assimilated foreigners (1180 - 1280/1300), here are some of my ideas for those units.

Feudal age: Enough Anglo-Saxon equipment was made up of Huscarls and militiamen armed with mail with spherical and conical helmets along with large circular shields or Kite style shields, the Danish and Norwegian influence left by Canute was clear.

(Anglo-Saxon army at Stamford Bridge)

(Anglo-Saxon huscarls at Hastings)

(Anglo-saxon huscarl)

Castle Age: This stage coincides with the baronial wars of Henry III and the invasion of Louis, the style of weaponry preserved from Anglo-Saxon times (soldiers fully covered in chain mail and spherical or conical helmets except for the legs) It was still the koine of England though, with a critical continental influence involved.

(Battle of Lewes Henry III 1260)


(Battle of sandwich 1217)