Enhancing the Chinese Civilization in Age of Empires IV

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Dear Age of Empires IV Development Team,

I am a devoted fan of the Age of Empires series, having loved it for over a decade. I deeply appreciate how each installment allows us to experience diverse histories and civilizations. The unique characteristics of each faction are truly captivating! I am especially grateful for the significant leap in graphics and art direction in Age of Empires IV – thank you for creating such a masterpiece!

Today, I am writing to provide my sincere feedback and hopes regarding the Chinese civilization, which I feel currently lacks the historical depth and power it rightfully deserves, particularly in its representation of Ming Dynasty gunpowder warfare and unique military doctrines.

1. Expanding the Gunpowder Arsenal: A Richness That History Deserves

The current implementation of Chinese gunpowder units does not reflect their historical prominence, diversity, and ingenuity. The Fire Lancebearerfeels largely ineffective, and the Nest of Bees, while iconic, has been significantly weakened.

The Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 AD) fielded the world’s first dedicated gunpowder corps, the “Divine Machine Battalion” (神机营, Shén Jī Yíng). China’s gunpowder arsenal was incredibly diverse and advanced, far beyond what is currently represented. We suggest introducing some of the following unique units and systems:

  • **Multi-Barreled Personal Firearms:**The “Three-Eyed Gun” (三眼铳, Sān Yǎn Chòng), a three-barreled hand cannon, was ideal for cavalry—allowing a volley of shots before closing in for melee. The **“Swift Thunder Gun” (迅雷铳, Xùn Léi Chòng)**was a revolutionary multi-barreled (5-18 barrels) wheellock or matchlock weapon, a precursor to rotary firearms, capable of sustained fire.

  • **Explosives and Area Denial:**Ming troops used a variety of hand-thrown explosives like **“Fire Bricks” (火砖, Huǒ Zhuān)**and the massive **“Ten Thousand Enemies Shatterer” (万人敌, Wàn Rén Dí)**siege demolition charge. They also pioneered the use of landmineswith complex trigger mechanisms.

  • Rocket Artillery:. The **“Flying Fire Crow” (神火飞鸦, Shén Huǒ Fēi Yā)**was a rocket-propelled explosive device used for long-range incendiary attacks.

These examples showcase an ecosystem of innovation that could make the Chinese gunpowder tech tree incredibly diverse and strategically deep.

2. Qi Jiguang’s Doctrines: Unique Units and Formations

The Ming Dynasty produced one of history’s greatest military reformers, Qi Jiguang(戚继光, 1528-1588 AD). His tactical systems, developed to counter specific threats, are perfect for unique gameplay mechanics.

  • **The “Mandarin Duck Formation” (鸳鸯阵, Yuān Yāng Zhèn):**This was a 12-man fire team for anti-pirate warfare. It featured specialized roles: **“Wolf Brush” (狼筅, Láng Xiǎn)**wielders to entangle and disrupt; spearmen for the main attack; sabre-and-shield soldiers for defense; and a dedicated firearcher (or later, musketeer) for support. This formation could be adapted into a powerful, high-cost, multi-person “Qi Jiguang’s Army” unique unitthat excels in melee but is vulnerable if its formation is broken.

  • **The “Mobile Bunker” Chariot Fortress (车营, Chē Yíng):**To counter Mongol cavalry on northern plains, Qi Jiguang created the “Chariot Camp.” “War Carts” (偏厢车, Piān Xiāng Chē), equipped with shields and light artillery (like breech-loading “Frankish Cannons” / 佛郎机, Fó Láng Jī), would link to form a movable fortress. From within, musketeers and rocketeers would fire, while cavalry armed with three-eyed guns waited to counter-charge. This could be represented as a support building or a unique heavy unitthat can deploy into a defensive structure, providing cover and buffs to nearby units.

3. The “Zhuge Liang” Strategy: Late-Game Viability

The “Zhuge Liang” strategic approach is a fascinating concept but faces practical issues. The White Horse Ridersarrive too late, and the Imperial Guard’slow ranged armor and lack of handgunner or skirmisher options make it difficult to counter certain compositions. Historically, Chinese armies extensively used mounted archers and elite infantry. Introducing a unique mounted archer unitand representing formations like the Southern Song’s **“Backbone Army” (背嵬军, Bèi Wēi Jūn)**or the Ming’s **“Border Cavalry” (边军铁骑, Biān Jūn Tiě Qí)**would add tremendous strategic depth and historical authenticity.

4. A Plea for a Chinese Civilization DLC

The rich military history of the Ming Dynasty, epitomized by figures like Qi Jiguangor the philosopher-strategist Wang Yangming(王阳明, 1472-1529 AD), offers perfect material for a dedicated DLC. A DLC exploring this era could introduce a wealth of new, high-quality unique units, technologies, and gameplay mechanics centered around disciplined infantry formations, advanced gunpowder tactics, and synergistic warfare.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my feedback. Strengthening the historical accuracy and gameplay impact of the Chinese civilization by incorporating its true military innovations would make Age of Empires IV an even more incredible and respected experience.

Sincerely,

A Loyal Fan of Age of Empires

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Weren’t the Song the first ones to deploy the first Gunpowder specialist military units?

Also I’m pretty sure the Flying Crow is hilariously anachronistic if we’re talking Ming Dynasty

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  1. **The Song Dynasty’s Pioneering Role is Missing:**While the game’s “Zhuge Liang” fantasy references an earlier era, historical gunpowder weapons were already used militarily during the Song Dynasty. This pioneering legacy is entirely absent from the game’s representation of the civilization.

  2. **The Ming Dynasty’s “Divine Machine Battalion” is Ignored:**The Ming Dynasty established the world’s first dedicated gunpowder corps, the “Divine Machine Battalion” (神机营, Shén Jī Yíng). This was a combined-arms unit that should be the core identity of the late-game Chinese army. Instead, we have weak and irrelevant units.

  3. **Advanced Gunpowder Weapons are Nowhere to Be Found:**China’s arsenal was incredibly advanced. Where are the “Swift Thunder Gun” (迅雷铳, Xùn Léi Chòng), a multi-barreled repeater? Where is the “Flying Fire Crow” (神火飞鸦, Shén Huǒ Fēi Yā), an early rocket-powered explosive? The current roster feels generic and underwhelming compared to this rich history.

The result is a civilization that is not only weak in the game’s meta—with a consistently bottom-tier win rate—but also feels utterly bland and uninteresting to play. It’s an insult to history and to the players. The Chinese civilization, the “Rome of the East,” deserves to be powerful, unique, and fun. It deserves a gunpowder arsenal that reflects its true historical innovation.

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You know, I see the real problem with China as being that it encompassed so much territory and had so many “unique units” in short periods of time during the Middle Ages that a single civilization isn’t enough for all of them.

Currently, as civilizations are created, there are various types, but I classify them into 3 periods:

  1. Evolutionary (Russia, China, France, Japan): The change in age also includes a change in unique units and represents the evolution of a nation over time. Because of this, they tend to use bonuses from the initial time period of the civilization, and upon reaching the Imperial Age, they get gunpowder units.

  2. Early Middle Ages (Macedonian, Templars, English): Their main bonuses are based on a dynasty or early period of the civilization, discarding bonuses from later periods to maintain consistency and balance.

  3. Late Middle Ages Civs (Ottoman, Mali, Sengoku, Tughlaq, Lancaster) - Because they represent a period after the beginning of the Middle Ages, they generally have better, if not earlier, Gunpowder units (Tanegashima ashigaru, Janissary), and different economic bonuses than their parent civ to reflect the different economic circumstances (Mansions, Instant Development, Daimyo Manors).

China Civ - Historical Representation

In this case, China and ZhuXi are in group 1: Evolutionary.

These civs are represented as

Because of this, they cannot fully exploit the particularities that a specific dynasty had, say, the Ming or the Song.

Right now, the issue with giving China more elements is that, currently, due to all the economic bonuses it has, it is already one of the best civs in the game, and if they added more, it would be even more overpowered.

MING Dynasty

Because most 1v1 matches end in either the Castle Age or Feudal Rush, it’s rare to reach the Ming Dynasty, and even if you do, I’d say the Early Ming is more represented than the Late Ming.

Historically, grenadiers with “explosive grenades,” not just flammable ones, only appeared in the Ming Dynasty, so it made sense to unlock them in that dynasty. When they added the early grenadiers in ZhuXi, they somewhat ruined the sense of the dynasty concept.

The bonus Attack or HP increase for unique units upon reaching this age might be great, but it doesn’t really explain “why” reaching that age grants that bonus.

Honestly, I would suggest creating a variant called “Ming Dynasty” instead, where the enormous, titanic number of unique units that this dynasty had could be added.

I’m already working on a concept for it, and among the many unique units it could have are:

  • Hook-Nife-Soldiers
  • Wolf Troop
  • Barefoot Militia
  • Rattan Swordsman
  • LangXian Pikeman
  • Shenjiying Arquebusier
  • White Shaft Spearman
  • Guanning Iron Cavalry
  • Ironman Soldiers
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Not paid DLC, free DLC. Relic owes the community atleast that. China, as has already been stated has had many dynasties over time. The amount of variants that could be added here are enormous, and would do the game justice, not just as playable variants for the Chinese civilisation, think larger, imagine what could come with it:

  • But also a chance to bring in a new co-op campaign game mode(s) where 2 players can complete a campaign.
  • 4 players can complete co-op scenarios with progression elements like we see in crucible/gauntlet/arena of the gods (AoM).
  • Up to 6 players can play a horde defense, defending an iconic central location on a beautifully created map set in a Chinese location for a scenario where a siege is taking place, and must work together to defeat waves of enemies.

Its time they started to think bigger, better, and for their community, and stop making excuses to us, and we stop making excuses to them. Relic need to learn to be passionate about making Age of Empires games. This isnt Dawn of War or Company of Heroes. Not another dollar from me.

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China’s unique units truly need buffs. Currently, apart from the Nest of Bees, all other unique units are in an awkward state. The movement speed advantage of the Palace Guard is heavily diluted in a cavalry-dominated meta, while the Zhuge Nu rarely sees play in the mainstream strategy of rushing to Castle Age with the “Professional Scouts” technology and mass-producing Lancers. As for the Fire Lancer and grenadiers—who needs a more expensive but stat-wise weaker version of a cavalry unit, or a unit that costs 7,200 resources to unlock yet is completely outclassed by handcannoneers?

Right now, China’s gameplay revolves around spamming generic units with almost no unique military bonuses, aiming to overwhelm the opponent before the deer resources run out. This strategy is indeed strong, but its strength is entirely tied to the Imperial Official and the Professional Scouts technology—it has little to do with the flashy unique units from the military buildings. The only time unique units come into play is when you realize your Lancers can’t finish the opponent, prompting you to quickly produce two Nests of Bees.

This also makes the Spirit Way landmark awkward. Since Dynasty units are practically unusable in the late game, building it seems only to save resources on a University and unlock “Ancient Techniques” earlier.

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First of all, I’m very glad you joined the discussion and sincerely shared your views; I truly appreciate it. I believe that although Zhu Xi’s Legacy and China have economic bonuses, they require a lot of steps, micro-management, and coordination to execute properly, which is fair. Their economy isn’t in an overwhelmingly dominant state; it’s a civ that requires a skilled player to bring out its potential. The current issue is that the unique units of China and Zhu Xi’s Legacy have been weakened too many times; their military strength is quite poor. As a result, China and Zhu Xi are only viable in 1v1 matches and are very passive in team games. Most importantly, China’s rich gunpowder and military systems aren’t fully represented.

Regarding the grenadiers you mentioned, their prototype actually originated from the “Zhen Tian Lei” (Sky-Shaking Thunder) of the Song Dynasty. Furthermore, gunpowder itself originated from the Song Dynasty, which also had “Pi Li Pao” (Thclap Cannon) and invented the fire lance and eruption lance. The Yuan Dynasty had the world’s earliest professional artillery corps, the “Hui Hui Pao” (Muslim Catapult), as well as hand cannons. By the Ming Dynasty, it became even more diverse and rich. So, I strongly agree with your suggestion for a Ming Dynasty variant. The Ming Dynasty had renowned military leaders like Qi Jiguang and Li Chengliang, as well as great thinkers and philosophers like Wang Yangming and Li Zhi.

Qi Jiguang, who fought against Japanese pirates (Wokou) and the Mongols, invented various formations and weapons. Li Chengliang battled the Jurchens and Mongols and commanded Manchu and Mongol troops himself. Li Zhi was a philosopher representing the budding seeds of Chinese enlightenment thought, proposing ideas like limiting monarchical power and prioritizing the people, which could also inspire gameplay design ideas. Therefore, a DLC focusing on Ming characters would be fantastic, potentially offering a choice between Li Chengliang’s (cavalry + gunpowder) or Qi Jiguang’s (infantry + gunpowder) military focus.

Furthermore, in actual history, Japanese cavalry and artillery were far inferior to Chinese cavalry, as evident in the Imjin War. China had been fighting the most powerful steppe nomads throughout antiquity and possessed a rich and powerful cavalry tradition. In the game, Zhu Xi’s cavalry was originally quite decent, but after the new DLC, they can’t even defeat the Warring States Daimyo’s cavalry, which is ridiculous. The only notable aspect of Japan in the Imjin War was their matchlock guns, but the Ming Dynasty quickly replicated and upgraded them into even more advanced bird guns (Niao Chong). Moreover, the Ming Dynasty had a genius gunpowder inventor like Zhao Shizhen, who invented a series of advanced firearms like the “Xun Lei Chong” (Rapid-Fire Thunder Gun). He could be designed as a character that unlocks the strongest gunpowder technologies for the Ming Dynasty in the game

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You are absolutely right. You’ve perfectly articulated the actual experience of current China civilization players.

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China has been done dirty mostly by professional players. They have an problem with X mechanic, demand to nerf it until the developers give in year after year. The problem is that the developers keep letting this nerf-creep to dismantle the Chinese identity in the game. It is laughable how many Castle age Handcannoneers there are in the game, where all China has to contend with are the utter trash that is Grenadiers who handle like a 2003 RTS unit from a Cereal box. Hell, even Sengoku is running around with grenade throwing ninjas that they can spawn anywhere on the map, and that scale all the way from feudal.

The favouritism is kind of ridiculous. That’s without even considering the “Zhu Xi’s Legacy” name for a civilization (reminder that it was Jade Empire before.. Lmao), shows how completely thoughtless and disinterested they have been in displaying the Chinese civilization in this game. Just think of how many iterations and changes the Japanese civilization has been getting, on top of getting a variant just a year later. They get rockets, they get castle age Ozutsu, they get early handcannoneer-crossbowman replacement, they get grenadier throwers, they get fighting monks that are infinitely superior to the Shaolin Monks (and aren’t locked behind some obnoxious double landmark bonus). I would say they’ve even put far, far more effort in visually depicting the Japanese civilization compared to the Chinese one.

So not only do you have professional play erode the essence of the Chinese civilization, you’ve got the developers themselves that are entirely disinterested to begin with, and let this erosion happen because… Who cares, right?

I recall when the Palace Guard’s gold cost was increased with the justification that China produced a lot of gold taxes. With their landmark, every Palace Guard was giving them 8. With this recent nerf, they are now only producing 4 for China. ZXL however (who lack Archers and HAVE to make ZGN), have to spend 3 more gold on each MAA than any other civilization for a unit that is strictly weaker. Remember, ZXL has to collect gold for their archers and even more gold for their NoB and even more gold for the 15% grenadier damage.

But, what really killed China was that initial change to Pyrotechnics. That, Firelancer and Grenadier nerfs has just made China a Spearman and Archer spamming civilization.

Thank god for the Imperial Official, because without it, they would have nothing going for them. And even then, I’ve got a feeling that this is what pro players ultimately want to prune out of existence. If they had their way, China would have no bonuses at all so they can finally stop playing it out of “necessity”. Maybe that’s why they keep nerfing every single interesting unit China has access to, and instead give Japanese infinitely better versions.

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Seems to me that all the passion for China was put into Age of Mythology instead of AoE4.

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Imo, the devs hurt themselves by using the dynasty mechanic for China, which makes the development of the Chinese variant civs much harder. Also agree the ‘Zhu Xi’s Legacy’ name is pretty silly and scream low effort. I hope they get a rename and rework someday (along with the Jeanne d’Arc civ); the first batch of variant civs were really bad.

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You have perfectly voiced the sentiments of the vast majority of Chinese civilization players! This is exactly how we feel. Historically, the art of the Song and Ming dynasties was unparalleled in the world, and Japanese aesthetics were largely influenced by China. It was only during the Edo period that Japan saw the true flourishing of its own native art. Yet, the development team seems to hold Japan in excessively high regard, almost as if they are die-hard fans of Japanese anime culture, while neglecting to properly study Chinese civilization. Games like Black Myth: Wukongand the Mandate of HeavenDLC for Crusader Kings IIIhave done an excellent job showcasing Chinese culture. In Age of Empires IV, however, the villagers are still dressed in Qing Dynasty clothing—a period that represents a profound humiliation in Chinese history. The repeated nerfs to the Chinese civilization will only push the game further away from the Chinese market and make Chinese players increasingly disengaged.

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We sincerely hope they will address the state of the Chinese civilization.