European Holy Sites

[OperaticShip743]

@Skadidesu

If you don’t like it, don’t play it.

It is not a matter of taste, because Malta has some very cool things, but its implementation is very forced. I also once suggested that it would fit better as a minor faction, since it seems that it is only present for those who are nostalgic for the campaign.

[Skadidesu]

We all know that they will never remove a civilisation just because a few people don’t like it.
Even if it actually were 50% of the people here.

Having a civilisation the the game that you don’t like barely influences your gameplay experience.

But removing a civilisation is a lot more impact full for those people that like playing it, they will have a lot less fun with the game now.
Especially because people payed to be able to play them.
Giving them something else in return (like Sicilians or something) is not what they payed for.
You could offer everyone a refund but then you would have to give money away.
Why would any company do that.

The amount of people that hate Malta is pretty small.
Even when the DLC released there were only a hand full of people complaining about it.

And yes turning it into a Minor civilisation is the same as taking it away.
Being able to play a civilisation in every match is completely different to being able to ally to them on a hand full of maps that might not even be in the ranked map list.

[SirBarnzy1]

@Skadidesu

Especially because people payed to be able to play them.

That’s the crux of it there. It would be a Developer and Publish no-no to charge for a DLC highlighting two new civs, then down the line remove it. Let’s not even entertain that.

Religion in the grand scheme of things was being ousted by the Enlightment and scientific thinking from the 17th century in Europe so having Holy Sites doesn’t sit quite right for me. Other than a few organisations (listed already, however reality is that they would have far smaller projection), there’s nothing else akin to devout holy warrior clans/groups widespread over Europe.

@MUTYLATOR5553

By the way, I miss a few Royal Houses for specific regions of Europe, e.g.:

1. Ottomans Royal House for the Balkan maps
2. Trastamara, Aviz, Borgia, Medici, Savoy and Sforza Royal Houses for the Mediterranean maps
3. Rurikid and Romanov Royal Houses for the Eastern European maps
4. Tudor and Stuard Royal Houses for the British Islands and Ireland maps
5. Ascania, Württemberg, Luxembourg, Hohenzollern, Nassau and Hochberg Royal Houses for Central European maps
6. Valois Royal House for French maps
7. Bagrationi Royal House (Georgian dynasty) for Caucassian maps

In this way, you could use these Royal Houses to represent nations that have no representation in the game.

I think above is totally the way to implement more Minor Civs (I’d love to see the Tudors and Stuarts!).

If you want something that a little unique and could potentially incorporate religion (within context), might I suggest:

Encampments
Represented by tents/shelters, weaponary stacked and a flag of whatever movement (Rebellions/uprisings/religious factions) is being portrayed, the Encampments could be present in many Euro maps (and of course, further into the world) as an alternative to your ‘prim-and-proper’ Royal Houses.

Example encampments:

Jacobites (British island and Ireland maps) - Covering the Jacobite Uprisings from the 17th and 18th centuries. Units could include Highland Targeteers (claymores & targe shields) and Jacobite Infantrymen.

Alternatively (of additionally) there’s also the Scottish Covenanters, which were the oppposite but linked.

Bohemian - Covering mainly Hussites from renaissance to the Bohemian Revolt era

Hugenots - (France) - Covers the Hugenots (French Protestants) and their rebellions (1621-29) but could also cover the War of the Camisards, 1702-1710 (Camisards being the Hugenots from rugged, mountainous regions of France, who had a perchant for guerilla warfare).

Peasant - A more general Encampment, though could be specific to region. Covers the many peasant uprisings in the early modern ages. Units would be quanity over quality, usings farm tools such as scythes as weapons.

[MatM1996]

The idea of the Royal Houses is that they can be used on several maps and will span a long period of time…holy sites or encampments wouldn’t fit if they can only be used in specific places…

[M00Z1LLA]

@SirBarnzy1

That’s the crux of it there. It would be a Developer and Publish no-no to charge for a DLC highlighting two new civs, then down the line remove it. Let’s not even entertain that.

Obviously if you took it away and gave nothing in return there would be a riot. But they could swap them out with something like Morocco or Egypt as the playable civ and still keep the Mediterranean theme. Throw in a mini campaign with Malta as a campaign civ and there wouldn’t be too many complaints (maybe Napoleon’s Egyptian campaign).

@SirBarnzy1

Religion in the grand scheme of things was being ousted by the Enlightment and scientific thinking from the 17th century in Europe

You’re projecting modern biases back on history and falsely framing religion and science as mutually exclusive. Europe was incredibly religious at this time and still in the middle of the wars of religion. Only a fraction of a percent of the elite were deist or atheist at this time.

@SirBarnzy1

Other than a few organisations (listed already, however reality is that they would have far smaller projection), there’s nothing else akin to devout holy warrior clans/groups widespread over Europe.

This is why I only suggested these two options. Just because a religion or royal house exists and you put it on a list doesn’t mean it would make a good settlement. Hussites are too early and geographically restricted, I have no idea what could possibly populate an “Orthodox Temple”, and the best option for a Protestant site is Pilgrims which make no sense in Europe.

@SirBarnzy1

I think above is totally the way to implement more Minor Civs (I’d love to see the Tudors and Stuarts!).

There are already 9 of them, so Europe is already massively overrepresented. Out of that list, only Nassau and Medici are realistically widespread enough to even make sense adding.

@SirBarnzy1

Encampments
Represented by tents/shelters, weaponary stacked and a flag of whatever movement (Rebellions/uprisings/religious factions) is being portrayed, the Encampments could be present in many Euro maps (and of course, further into the world) as an alternative to your ‘prim-and-proper’ Royal Houses.

This doesn’t really make sense. The peasants had homes and even in rebellion, they would have mostly occupied towns and fortifications.

I think the best option for diversifying European settlements would be modelling them on the Three Estates. So you could have sites as follows:

First Estate (Clergy)

• Papal Basilica
• Hospitaller Commandery

Second Estate (Nobility)

• Royal Palace
  • Could have a few variable techs to represent the most prominent houses
• Prince’s Estate
  • Represents Prince Electors
  • Units could be both Knights and Serfs

Third Estate (Merchants and Peasants)

• Hansa Kontor
  • Represents the merchants of northern Europe
• Manufactory
  • Represents both the cottage industry and emerging factories
  • Could have an “Industrial Revolution” just like the Victorian Era
• Other?
  • Peasants weren’t very organized so it’s hard to come up with a generic institution for them
  • Maybe a merchant quarter with more of a southern European theme?

It’s not like most of the royal house units have any strong connection to the royal houses they are trained by, and most of them could work better in their respective civs.

[Skadidesu]

@M00Z1LLA

Obviously if you took it away and gave nothing in return there would be a riot. But they could swap them out with something like Morocco or Egypt as the playable civ and still keep the Mediterranean theme.

There would still be a riot.
You can’t just give people something completely different compared to what they payed for. You might even brake some laws by doing so.
We all know that this will never happen.

It’s not like they are more likely to add Morocco by removing another civilisation.
The opposite even, if Morocco is part of a new DLC they’ll make more money and therefore can justify putting the work into making a new civilisation.