Feedback from 5 of the top beta players

I agree that balance is not a matter of representation but a proposed solution might be only viable for a miniscule portion of the player base and could adversly affect everyone else so its important to keep it in mind. AoE4 is not going to take over the lan cafes in Seoul no matter what they do with the game so its not always the correct move to cater exclusively to the top players.

As far as hours played, 200 is not enough. Especially not across 2 dysfunctional betas. Simple bug fixes (like making sure the HRE prelate actually works) can throw the balance completely off again.

Which isn’t to say that their feedback isn’t extremely valuable and appreciated, just that I agree with Josh that you gotta give it at least a month for the meta to develop before they start sledgehammering balance changes.

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Top it off we had a major balance change between the two betas.

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Very nice feedback with dedication, you are doing this community a great favor!

If I might add, instead of making house-building harder, I’d like to see destroying enemy’s houses more rewarding. Currently, a house (and gathering camps) has 750HP with just 50w costs, making it a very low-value target. If it were more fragile, carelessly building houses will punish you later.

I hope damaging supply becomes a thing, not as vital as Command & Conquer level, but still.

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Oh no I didn’t make a backup of all the posts I did in the stress test forum :frowning:

Nevertheless, its important to point out to everyone that Chinese needs buffs badly. They lost the extra 2 starting villagers. The Tax collection has issues. How are you going to get Tax from buildings at the frontline and collect all the Tax you get from mining camps at gold veins in the middle of the map? You are never going to be able to collect this Tax unless something changes.

We talked about the Tax collection issues extensively in the forums. One guy said “Just build extra Town Centers” but obviously no one is going to do that. You are going to build 3, maybe even 4 Town Centers, but these are not going to be at the front line.

So here is what I came up with: Allow Tax Collectors to drop off Tax at keeps. Obviously, you are going to build Keeps at the frontline to secure your gold income. And you might also bring an Imperial official to supervise the mining camp. But without a Town Center nearby you aren’t going to get any Tax. But not only are you going to lose Tax from the Mining camps, you also don’t get any Tax from production buildings you build at the front! You want your siege workshops, barracks, stables close to the front to reduce reinforcement time. But you’re never going to get Tax from these.

So in practice, while all other civs get stronger thanks to their unique bonuses, the Chinese Tax collection gets weaker as production and villagers shift further away from Town centers.

So, allow Imperial officials to drop off collected Tax at keeps. This simple change would fix these issues.

The Dynasty system needs changes. You shouldn’t lose access to previously unlocked units and buildings. Building the 2nd Landmarks (apart from Age 2 Landmarks) is way too expensive and the bonuses you get are not even as strong as what Abbasids get from their House of wisdom. Meanwhile you are paying thousands of ressources for it.

While Abbasids unlock multiple strong technologies, none of these Technologies cost 1200 food 600 coin or the same cost as an Imperial Age Landmark. The cost for 2nd Landmark for the Chinese need to get reduced drastically.

The Chinese Landmarks are the worst in the entire game. The Age 3 Landmarks are terrible compared to the free Town Center of the English or the Chapel producing up to 900 coin from 3 Relics of the HRE. The Age 4 Landmarks of the Chinese are even worse.
The HRE get a better Town Center producing 75% cheaper and faster villagers and ontop of it their Age 4 is 20% cheaper. The English get the most insane Age 4 Landmark which produces 1 Spearmen, 1 Knight, 1 Longbowmen and 1 Trebuchet at once. But you don’t pay the same ressources. Instead, you save 500 wood, over 300 food and pay 270 extra coin for all of these units. As soon as you reach Age 4, this Landmark alone will win you the game as you drown your opponent in Trebuchet spam. What do the Chinese get? The Spirit Way makes your Dynasty units 30% cheaper if you build your Archery Ranges and Stable in a very small radius around it. At best, you are going to boost maybe 6 buildings. Saving 30% cost on the cheap Chuko Nu is a weak effect. If you didn’t build any additional Landmark, this Age IV Landmark does nothing for you. And you shouldn’t because building additional 3 Age and Age 4 Landmark is a giant waste of ressources. If you have that many ressources, go for the Wonder victory.

In regards to Gold economy: The Tax collection is an incredibly complicated way to get infinite gold income. And as I have pointed out above, it has multiple issues. When you look at the HRE, they can get 900 infinite Gold income from 3 relics which is overpowered in itself. The English get gold from every farm around mills without having to do anything but research a technology. The Chinese is extremely complicated, the base building is more complicated, the skill ceiling is much higher but the rewards are much worse than what other civs get.

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For that the walls exist, unlike the SC.

1 vill per house should never be done.

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Great feedback and constructive approach. I don’t necessarily agree with every point, but I do see a lot of it being useful. Would love to see the developers reply to these points.

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I have exactly one post backup from you, since it was so good :stuck_out_tongue:

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You’re right that balance questions like “which is the best civ” aren’t questions of representation because they can be answered statistically. But questions about what to change are absolutely questions of representation. They’re matters of opinions: which features do you like or dislike?

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Only the top players really need good balance though. At lower level where people cant even keep up vil production or avoid floating thousands of resources, a unit doing 1 too much dmg isnt gonna be the reason you win or lose

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Keep in mind that low level players are the first to cry when they throw their troops against elephants and lose instead of coming up with a counter strategy.

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hahah those were the funniest posts to read. ELEPHANTS ARE TOO OP!

"I attacked 1 elephant with 10 un-upgraded spearmen and they all died! :frowning: "

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“What’s a Springald? … Bombards? Those are just for sieging buildings, right?”

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Exactly.
“What units were you using against them?”
"Longbows :man_shrugging: "

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This argument doesn’t make sense to me. Are you implying casual players don’t deserve to be playing a balanced game? Just because you are not skilled enough to make the most out of your civilisation doesn’t mean you civilisation should be overpowered or underpowered.

Lets take the Chinese as the prime example for the underpowered civilisation. I won every single 1vs1 as the Chinese but that doesn’t change the fact they are underpowered. That was simply due to the fact that I was playing better than my opponents and the system was unable to predict this in my first 10 games.

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Did you qoute the wrong guy? You just proved my point. At the level you were playing against what caused you to win was because you played better. Not an unbalance in civs. Therefore balance should be done with regards to how strong they are when played optimally. If you play a hard civ and complain they are weak but you simply cant take advantage of their strong side because you dont know how to, it doesnt mean the civ should be made better. It means you should get better or play an easier civ. Trying to balance the civs for noobs is pointless and will ruin balance at higher level because it would be giving an unfair advantage to the hard civs so noobs could win with them.

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Yes that should be obvious. Thats how you do balance properly. Looks like you and me were talking about the same thing after all.

Yes thats obvious aswell. So why did you write “Only top players really need good balance”? Everyone needs it no matter how much use you can make of it.

I also want to point out when I choosing the enemy building or siege unit, I don’t want to see the enemy soldier inside. looks like right now if I choose the enemy buildings /stage weapons, I can see what kind of soldier inside, which is really unnecessary. Also, when my unit inside my building, it looks like it blocked the building’s name and Information. And I like the age of empire 2 when you click the Unit in the building,
It will send them out. Also if the villagers are Free of resource on the body, the mouse will become go inside building function, which is really not necessary.

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Not being able to target units with Town center is one of the biggest matter of the game right now. If you can target with TC then ram pushes basically won’t work as you will just clean up all supporting units around the rams.
On the other hand if TC cant target like right now, ram pushes are strong, but are they unholdeable? I don’t think so, for example there’s very interesting game Age of Empires 4 Cast - The Ram All-In Is Insane - YouTube and it was held.

I think ram pushes are strong but not overpowered and they limit ability to play fast second TC, which I think is a good thing. If you play 1 TC, then you can hold them quite easily. If ram all-ins are killed, we will see 2 TC boom into castle 15 minute no rush most of games. I think that’d be pretty bad for esport and in general peoples enjoyment to have 15 minute no rushes. Imo it should be kept as it is.

Also I think HRE is stronger or at least comparable to english, because of economy, landmark with relics and vil boosts are just very big.

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You should be able to target supporting units with the TC.
This is the reason why you can put units into rams.

Being forced to shoot at the ram with the TC makes it defensive purpose useless, wouldn’t you agree ?

I know, comparing to other games is kinda pointless, still.
In AoE2 you can target with the TC, what one does is:
You leave units outside the TC range and let the ram push. In AoE4 this is hardly possible since the TC got such a huge range, so you need to place your units inside the rams to protect them and only pull them out of the rams when they need to defend those rams (and lets be honest, they can hold 16 !! units, that is a loooot)

Currently this mechanic is not needed since the TC defensive is “bugged” ?

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Not being able to target with TC is definitely logically weird and and it’s very counterintuitive. Initially I also wanted it to be changed because it just doesn’t make sense to not be able to do it.

But we could think here from meta/design perspective, do we want ram all-ins to be not viable at all? I think they serve very important role to punish too greedy openers and make game more interesting.

I wasn’t aware that you could micro them like this as I haven’t played AOE2 too much. It’s quite interesting… Maybe you are right and that type of micro is enough to still make them work I don’t know. Imo it’s just very important to keep ram all-ins strong.