There is no water fight in Arena.
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Does anyone know what demolition ships counter now?
Do they still counter fire ships or do they counter the hulks now?
To avoid tech bloat on the University, why not move techs like Carvel Hull, Siphons, and perhaps Tower upgrades to the Blacksmith?
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@II.Selim May I please ask you to not turn every post you participate in into a Turk discussion? Thank you. 
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I doubt he’s going to listen.
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If he didn’t listen the first 5 or 6 times, why would he listen now?
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yeah well no one should care about full tech mode
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I think they don’t have demo, devs just forgot to mention them. Otherwise where do you put the demo upgrade button?
They didn’t forget, they still have it.
Under the Demo line. They have space to put the Thirisadai in.
The difference between Dravidians and Vikings, Portuguese etc…no elite upgrade.
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Honestly, I think Turks are actually relevant here. Historically one would expect Turks to have a strong navy (and history does generally seem to factor in to water balance in this way). Their naval bonus used to be their long-ranged cannon galleons. But now that siege engineers affects cannon galleons, a generic fully upgraded cannon galleon is arguably better than a Turkish one (+20% damage being better than +6% range, especially when you already outrange the target), so Turks now have a pretty generic navy.
I don’t know what the solution is, since I think siege engineers should affect cannon galleons. But I’m pretty sure the solution doesn’t involve buffing Portuguese…
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At this point buffing Portuguese is the new “nerf Sicilians” meme. It just keeps happening for no reason.
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I used to enjoy water maps, but I stopped playing them after Siege Engineers started affecting ships.
And what did it achieve? Did it make naval warfare more interesting? Civs with Siege Engineers received an unnecessary naval buff, and civs who lack it received an unnecessary nerf. It made naval warfare more snowbally because now cannon galleons demolish buildings more quickly and safely.
It didn’t affect only the Turks, either. Korean towers and Teuton castles are now outranged by non-elite cannon galleons too. This was never part of the deal. It also diminished the value of upgrading cannon galleons.
See just how one decision can ruin a lot of things. There was a good reason why Siege Engineers should never have affected ships.
It’s strange that Portuguese have such bad win rates. Even on many water maps they aren’t in the Top 5 often.
Apparently according to aoe2insights they are #47 across all ELOs, and only at 1900+ and 800-1000 over 50%.
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Where? If they have demo + demo upgrade + cannon galleon + cannon galleon upgrade, the full 3x4 space is occupied. Where do you put this?
Watch Ornlu’s video on it. He uses Dravidians as the example.
Feudal Age: Dravidians with a garrison fishing ship
Castle Age: Dravidians Imperial Age: Dravidians
From SotL video:
University techs:
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So Thirisadai and Go back to work uses the same spot? That’s a bad design.
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yeah and the fact that dravidians get demos and thirisadai cause it doesn’t have an upgrade, but vikings, koreans, portuguese don’t get demos cause their uu ships do have upgrades is…the backwardest thing imaginable to me. having civ design dictated by ui of all things is just wrong.
moving some of the dock techs to the university is fine. I think they make a little more sense at the dock, tho maybe that’s just what i’m used to, but it’s ok so long as it solves a problem, namely the second page of the dock…which it doesn’t really do.
Oh, there’s not a second page for the dock anymore, but at the cost of further simplifying the warship upgrades (further combining them seems like the wrong move in a vacuum as no other unit in the game is upgraded in the same way), and having UI elements typically reserved for buildings (fishing ship trap building and trade cog resource collecting balance) moved to the units, and moving dock techs to the university, and having civ design dictated by UI…and dravidians don’t have a go back to work button.
I don’t feel like any one of these would be a deal breaker, but their jankiness in combination becomes quite a lot.
The irony is, that in the pursuit of solving one ui problem they’re creating numerous other ui problems.
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Let’s wait for an Anatolian/Central Asian/Steppe DLC with Turks+Byzantines/Turks+Mongols rework. Looks like that’s the pattern we’re going through.
Easy to fix.
Introduce a new technology (like “Sea Engineers” 
) and transfer the naval bonuses of Siege Engineers to it. Then, give this technology to those who have either Siege Engineers or Artillery.