Yeah. They should get low PA to be countered by galley line anyway. Maybe Dock attacks can be increased a bit. 3 attack is very low. Docks +2 attack but -2 range will be nicer imo.
If we are making rework:
My ideas:
Remove separate upgrades for demo ships, they can upgrade with chemistry.
But i think all ships should be more expensive in general. I mean land units should be more cost effective against them so that shallow water hybrid maps are not dominated by water play. (shipbuilding is expensive stuff.)
Also split docs to two buildings.
Dock(economic) and shipyard(warfare)
If a units has cavalry trait it should take 1 additional space in transports, and elephant 1 additional space, and siege trait +2. example: so elephants units are cavalry would take 3 spaces.
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Thought about that too.
Alternative suggestion:
- replace Cannon Galleon with Trebuchet Ship
- Elite Cannon Galleon renamed to Cannon Galleon
- Elite Cannon Galleon is directly available after researching Chemistry
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If I get it correctly, it’s basically equal to giving the civs a Dromon-like, a siege ship that does not require Chemistry, while Cannon Galleon requires Chemistry. That would cause quite a big change, so I’m afraid it wouldn’t be appropriate.
It’s quite fair that the Elite Cannon Galleon upgrade requires researching Heavy Warships first. Generally speaking, you only get the chance to use Elite Cannon Galleons in late-game, and by that point, it’s very unlikely that players haven’t already researched Heavy Warships.
Even if a little unrealistic the Trebuchet Ship (or Dromon too) could still require Chemistry.
In Chronicles the Leviathan requires “Flaming Arrow” which is a rebranded Chemistry despite not even shooting arrows. Same with the Siege Ballista (Bombard Cannon reskin) and Gastraphetoros (Hand Cannon reskin).
It would basically just reskin the Cannon Galleon to not have a Cannon on it and make the Elite Cannon Galleon directly accessible without an upgrade.
That would work too.
But I like the idea of having a Trebuchet Ship for every civilisation that does not have Bombard Cannons on land.
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Some civs have bonuses for both demolition ship and cannon galleon upgrades.
You can’t grant half of the civs a new ship out of thin air, make the naval battles unnecessarily more snowbally (think about the Spanish Cannon Galleons), ignore these civ bonuses, and just call it a day.
Also idea from UpmostRook9474 actually rocks and is more logical had to repost:
”I think a more logical counter relationship would be Hulk > Galley > Fire Ship > Hulk, which is the reverse of the upcoming one. Fire ships should be able to burn down approaching boarding ships, but they should be vulnerable to arrows coming from a distance, whether from galleys, soldiers, or buildings.”
My idea also make boarding ships hulks very fast ships that “stun” the unit it is attacking and prevent it from moving but not attacking. thus be very good vs galleons by catching them, and make fire ships be countered by galleons due to their slowness as it was now. and fireships will destroy hulks because of their rate of fire and some bonus dmg against them.
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If the aim is to broaden the appeal of water gameplay, introducing anti-fun mechanics like stun seems like a really bad way to achieve that.
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That is subjective of what you see as anti-fun mechanics. We already have a slow effect in game. Maybe change “stun” with “strong slow”. Grappling hooks also kinda make sense and would seem appropriate and intuitive.
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So you think it’s fun to have your units stunned?
I mean I agree it’s subjective, but note that this is exactly the reason the original developers didn’t put boarding ships in AoK.
I don’t think the slow effect should be in the game personally.
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And we didn’t get a new monastery for East Asian civs even though the current one seriously only fits the Japanese.
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And there should be an E. Euro Catholic monastery for Poles, Lithuanians, Magyars, and Bohemians (Bohemians should be Cent. Euro architecture but that’s a seperate convo). The new monasteries aren’t perfect, but they’re a step in the right direction and give hope for further steps in the right direction is all i’m saying.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about Catholic churches for the non-Orthodox civs in the E. Euro set. But in the E. Asia set’s case, TTK added a lot of pagoda models, I don’t understand why the devs made one of those the new E. Asia moanstery and restricted the OG one to just Japanese.
Malbork castle? The one that became the Slavs’ castle despite not even being located in Russia? (And being built by the Teutonic Order)
That church model does look good tho.
Back to the thread’s actual subject, I think whether the Dock gets split or not, we need one extra row in the UI.
Tbh the castle and imperial east European architecture doesnt fit the Russians well
While I also believe this makes more sense, I wonder whether devs want hulk to be a non-suicidal version of demo ship. Original one is Demo >Fire> Galley> Demo. But Galley dominate water after massing up. I just find it wierd to let hulk fight as warship.
I think partially this, and also the player base is used to fire ships countering galleys and probably didn’t want the playerbase having to relearn this aspect as well; only relearn part of the water triangle as opposed to the whole thing.
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That is because it makes sense that a demolition ship is weaker against projectiles than a fire ship. However, now we’re going to replace it with a ship that should be logically stronger against projectiles than a fire ship.
Is it possible to make Galley less dominant after massing up? I feel like introducing Hulk is pretty unnecessary.