Fix Siscillians

Regarding 1st Crusade make the cost to be proportional to the number of TC’s. This way you can actually use it for defence early castle and allows many interesting plays.

Regarding Sergeant

Maybe decrease gold cost. It is tanky but has weak offence, it is a very expensive shield for your othe troops

Regarding Economic bonus.

They have no power unit, give them something to start the game more dynamicaly. e.g. the farm upgrades could increase food of already planted farms, maybe not 100% just a +50% or a fixed + 75 food per farm would be perfect

If not upgrade farms then some free stone would be nice and in line with the expensive Dongeons


assuming they somehow can afford a castle in early castle age but can’t somehow defend their base.

cavaliers that reduce incoming anti cav damage by 50% and arbs who do the same.


Simple scenario I am playing on the defencive with 2 tcs and 1 castle.

I pay 200 food 400 gold (it must be cheap with 2 tcs) and get 14 -16-18 Sergeants

Resistant cavaliers and not FU arbalest are very good but they are no power unit. You know what a power unit is right?

they absolutely are a power unit, they will take a lot for the enemy to take down. do i think Sicilians need buffs right now? absolutely. do i think they lack a power unit to build an army around? absolutely not.


Where would you think they need help?

early game economically. i think they also suffer against tower rushes.


they lack the final armour upgrade so it actually cancels out.

wrt cavalry yeah they are awesome vs counter units, but if someone is making meta units it makes no difference. compared to say bulgarian, malian, berber, frank, lith,slav all getting better/more cost effective heavy cav(cavalier+) vs raw damage, nevermind paladins. afaik there are very few civs who cant make an “uber” unit of some kind or another whether its a UU archer, HCA or cav

and i think thats what a lot of people have an issue against

this does happen, especially since sic are encouraged to spam stone

yeah agreed, their late game still has scrutage and 1st crusade does still work very well.

and arbs are still a good unit though, vikings and japanese still rely upon them.

so play smart, not what you’re “encouraged to do”

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viking and japanese not only have better ecos, but their arbs take less damage from every single other source besides skirms, where they take the same… and japs have the aforementioned HCA, and vikings have the uber zerk, which complements their SR more so than the serjeant especially now that the siege has been nerfed

you dont understand, i dont mean encouraged by other people

Thats the reason I would like them to have a stone bonus (like free stone mining, or start with some extra stone). In case of enemy trushing them, their economy wont resent so much.

Although this would encourage them to do what they are encouraged to even more: donjons, TCs for first crusades, castle drops…

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I think if their eco was slightly better in another field or if their serjeants were slightly more cost effective they might be able to fend off trushes using them.

As it stands i can’t see how we could give them a good enough stone income that will allow them to build remotely as many donjons as the opponent makes twrs without allowing them to do donjon drop aggressively…

That’s why i thought of helping them in another field.

For example when fighting incan trush one counter is to go fast archers. To supplement your twrs.

But maybe the free stone mining will be ok? It at least fits thematically

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I understand, although now what I think about this, I believe sicilians archers are already better for defense because of the damage resistance against skirms, and also the farming bonus alleviates the wood expenses after going to archers.

So, if we didnt want to give them stonemining buffs, I wouldn’t buff their wood units either.

One important thing against trushes is spotting the trush early. Maybe more LOS to their eco buildings besides TC?

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Vikings and japs have FU arbs, sicilians lack both the last armor and TR, they get 2 bonus damage less from skirms, but also receive +2 base damage from lacking the last armor.

They are more comparable to the aztecs’ arbs, which lack the same techs, but compensate that with a stronger archers rush and better skirms in the late game.

That is true, maybe they could have a bonus that they start with more stone, since it would be balanced by the fact that their towers cost more.

Well, they see already pushed towards that so I don’t think that it’s a problem, if they would start with just 100 stone more it would be balanced. If the enemy Trush you, at least he is forced to build more towers, and not just one to force you into stone.


yeah as it stands placing a donjon forces the player to harvest a massive 100 stone for their next tc, or 200 for their 2nd donjon

while other civs can even get away with placing a twr and a tc without harvesting anything.

im wondering it it might be cost effective to simply force a sic player to place a single donjon vs your single twr as it already puts you ahead in wood and stone by forcing them to do that(nevermind a full on twr rush which is even worse)

Exactly, you don’t even have to be a good Trush civ to do that. You go build a tower, you force a donjon, and then 3 of the vills that built the tower go to do one trip each to the stone and you have enough resources to get a TC.

With 300 starting stone instead, the enemy at least is forced to build a second tower to burn all the sicilians’ stone, so he needs to seriously get on stone too.

Incas and koreans will still be strong vs the sicilians, but 2 bad matchups are tolerable.

Then they need a bit of buff for the late game in the tech tree, like getting hussar or giving TR for their arbs.

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with their late game i think crusade and scrutage are supposed to balance that, and specifically taken together… to get 75+ units

I don’t think that the 2 UT helps a lot. Infantry+Siege is a good combo for them, but that is too situational.

Their cavaliers are good, but not that good, they resi9to anti cav units, but you’ll still want to avoid those units with your cavaliers. And for sure they aren’t on the level of bulgas, malians, berbers and portos.

And their arbs aren’t that good even for support, considering that they lack RoF without TR. The skirms are better, but still lacks the last armor so they are good just as a support.

i think its more for a big power spike, since if you play it right you go to 200 pop. then pop 1st crusade followed by scrutage. even if serjeants arent the best unit in the game , the 35 are still extremely cost effective

Yeah but it takes time to build up to that point, and the power spike it’s not something that you should build your strategy around. This 2 techs makes the sicilians a one trick pony basically.

First crusade it has already been nerfed, and it’ll be changed again probably. And anyway, they suffer from a similar proto the one of italians, spanish and portos, of having small bonuses that helps a bit everywhere, but with nothing really consistently strong, and unlike the previous named civs, they don’t have FU arbs or paladins.

yeah without them i do think they can struggle, as we know their units take full “normal damage”

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