Fixing Delhi

right you sure are the best alpha player here and nobody can comprehend your wisdom. Your knowledge is a curse i’m sure ! i can feel it (here i’m not first degree ;D )

Having played this patch for awhile now, there was a lot good in it. However, I am a Delhi player. Or rather I was. I really enjoyed playing Delhi. I liked their marco style and enjoyed playing for the late game. Smashing armies with elephants was a lot of fun. I was one of the few who didn’t rush sanctity.

I watched several of the patch reviews by the high level players and I hoped they were all exaggerating with Delhi being unplayable at the current point. However, having given it a try, I’m sad to say they are right. Delhi does not stand a chance in basically any scenario.

On water maps their ships are inferior to the other civs. Their fishing ship repair rate cannot be researched early enough before your fleet is destroyed. The tech takes too long to research be useful. We can’t afford to make an extra dock to research it plus sometimes an extra mosque far from our base, plus scholars, so the tech researches faster. Even taking into account unit costs, cost for cost they are at the bottom (of the sea and the ranking system).

Removing Sanctity in dark age means there is minimal early aggressive play. I agree you shouldn’t be able to capture the sacred sites in dark age, but there needs to be a bit of a step back. It should either be researchable in Dark Age so you can capture in Feudal or it needs its research time drastically reduced so you don’t spend feudal age researching a tech that won’t matter since you can be castle age by the time it is done anyway.

They have nothing that really makes them shine in Feudal Age. They start their eco boom with the free techs, but for units, they can generally be out matched by other civs who have early knights, man at arms, or better archers. Having to walk near the tower of victory to get its attack bonus means that it has to be proxied to be used. With all the wolves, scouting, and other units available, plus the fact that you have to give up the walking time of 5-10 villagers to build it near their base, that has a slim chance of working. Additionally the new research system, means you need to have cheap scholars, or you better win the game in early castle age.

Castle age was their one chance to win the game. Having cheap scholars to heal their units was one way they have an advantage both in Feudal and Castle Age. However, healing is currently bugged and scholars get stuck healing units that are already full health. Delhi is again hit the hardest here because elephants need healing. The main mechanic of their castle age push is elephants being healed by scholars, and now they are healing some full health archer in the back.

Finally there is Imperial Age. Imperial Age, which was supposed to be Dehli’s great Age where they have all the techs and can field a fearsome army, has now been neutered by the 15x research speed, which if rumours are correct, is also bugged. Delhi cannot spend Imperial Age making 5 mosques and having them all make scholars to try to research techs. If you give up that kind of gold, you will die. You cannot afford to give up 15 population to sit in mosques researching techs. In Imperial Age, there is nothing left for your opponent to do other than kill you while you wait 5 minutes for techs to research. They have their economy, they have their army, and they are getting the final technologies. You will die. I really don’t understand where 15x came from. You went 3x, 3.5x, 5x, and then 15x. So 40% reduction, 30% reduction, no change, and then a 300% increase. Your developer note said that you wanted it to be commensurate with the ability to produce scholars. You do not have a 300% increased ability to make scholars. You gold is needed for military and trade carts.

I really hope you address these issues in a patch sometime soon because I want to play Delhi, but I won’t be until at least the bugs are addressed.

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The reason the x15 was introduced is bad design.

The game designers said that having Delhi finish all their imperial techs at once, one minute after reaching imperial is too strong.

So they made it so that you can’t have any tech until 5 minutes after reaching imperial.

The design issue here isn’t the fact that Delhi can research their tech for free, but the fact that Delhi is able to get all of their tech researched all at once.

It’s a dumb attempt at trying to balance a mechanic that is always overpowered, or underpowered.

The trade-off doesn’t make sense for what the bonus gives, so increasing the trade-off doesn’t balance the bonus.

Dropping the multiplier to x8, or x10, will still present the same problem they tried to eliminate in the first place.

That is a good point about having all the techs too quickly, but I dont think it works that way in practice. Nobody is able to build 6 universities in Imperial age to get all the techs that quickly. For the techs in production buildings often you cant afford the time to give up unit production.

If that is the case for blacksmith techs they could increase the cost of the blacksmith to prevent 4 blacksmiths going down and reseaching everything right away. Another option would be to say that as part of the free research deal Dehli can only have 2 blacksmiths and 1 university at any 1 time, so you have to take your time researching.

You ain’t understanding your own game if this is the reason. This is bad Design for a “Balance” team . They shouldn, at least, have let us players try the civs long enough to the point we ALL know what were strong with the civ before deleting their imperial age. Because we didn’t know ■■■■ about the civ and they nerfed it. Honestly we can’t even aggree on how strong that “free” tech bonus is and WE ACTUALLY ARE PLAYING DELHI. they didn’t even know the game and they come “balancing” it based on some complain about randoms things ?!

Im agree with you. Definitively with everything, i did too post about this. I think Unbalanced Sultanat is too much nerfed, just read - #5 by Preesor

After i reached 35lvl in aoe4, im starting thinking they dont care about this game. If they not patch this in next patch, i will definitely go play something better. Hopefuly i got gamepass.

you cant just move on like that, if everyone thinks this way who will be left to test and find all the bugs this game has to offer? dont be selfish, also dont forget to the buy the DLC when it comes out.

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So I thought about this further over the weekend (how to balance Sanctity and such based on the philosophy stated in the balance team’s live stream last week), and I’m changing my suggestion. Below is I think the best possible design for Sanctity and the Feudal Age Landmarks without fundamentally changing something or adding something totally new:

  1. Sanctity does NOT allow early capture of sacred sites. It only provides double gold income from sacred sites, and can be researched in the Dark Age (could be pushed to Feudal if later testing determines double income in early Feudal is still too strong, but I don’t believe this will be the case).

  2. Tower of Victory: Sacred Sites can be captured in the Feudal Age. Foot soldiers that pass through the influence of the Tower of Victory, a mosque or a madrasa gain a permanent 15% attack speed boost (not just the tower’s influence, since that’s an absurdly frustrating micro sink to deal with most of the time, and delays getting troops to the front - it becomes completely impractical in late game). Ships built from docks under the influence of the Tower of Victory, a mosque or a madrasa get a permanent 15% attack speed boost (otherwise Tower has almost no utility on water maps). Foot soldiers can build mosques (now your armies want to build forward mosques to ensure all newly arriving units are properly motivated to fight fervently).

  3. Dome of Faith: Scholars (from all production buildings), mosques and madrasas cost -50% resources. Villagers under the influence of a mosque or madrasa work 10% faster.

The issue the devs brought up is they wanted Delhi to have more than 1 viable strategy, and didn’t want every game to focus on early sacred site capture. On reflection, it becomes apparent that ANY early sacred site capture strategy will become overpowered in combination with whatever other Feudal Age bonuses are provided to facilitate alternative strategies. The only way to allow early sacred site play AND have other viable strategies is to force a tradeoff. That means capturing sacred sites in Feudal HAS to be tied to a landmark (there’s no other way to exclude alternative bonuses).

While I initially thought putting it with Tower of Victory would make Dome of Faith pointless (gold income from the early sacred sites offsetting the Dome’s gold savings on scholars), excluding early sacred site capture from the Dome path entirely now allows you to buff the Dome of Faith into something more interesting anyway (you can’t get substantial scholar gold savings AND early sacred site income). So we’ve now created what the devs said they want: 2 compelling choices. The Tower of Victory is geared towards and rewards aggressive military play and map control. The Dome of Faith is geared towards investing in technology and development at home. BOTH of them now expand on the concept of mosque/madrasa influence and now motivate the Dehli player to build MORE mosques and madrasas wherever you expand.

It’s tempting at initial glance to think adding these bonuses is overpowered, but I don’t think so. The Tower of Victory influence area issue needed to be addressed anyway, and adding it to naval vessels makes sense (in my opinion). Otherwise getting the attack boost plus capturing sacred sites in Feudal age is already what almost everyone was pushing for (be able to cap sacred sites when hitting Feudal or almost immediately thereafter, not Dark Age, like before, and not several minutes after getting to Feudal). So while the Tower of Victory now looks really interesting (assuming they fix the bugs), I don’t think it’s OP by any stretch.

The Dome of Faith is also more compelling. Granted, it’s what basically everyone build now anyway, but that won’t be the case if Tower of Victory allows early sacred site capture. Dome of Faith actually needs to be buffed beyond a 75g scholar discount (amounts to what, roughly 100 gold per minute if you maintain CONSTANT scholar production) when the Tower of Victory’s early sacred sites easily put 200-400 gold per minute in play plus a 15% attack speed boost. Having the Dome discount madrasas by 50% might be too much, but I doubt it. Discounting the mosques 50% is (a) a fairly small eco boost (at most a few hundred wood over the course of the game with current meta), and (b) necessary to have the villager working speed boost be viable. Going Dome of Faith you’re going to need to build more mosques to keep you’re villagers influenced and working faster, and that 10% boost just isn’t worth it for 100 wood up front (you would need to collect 1000 resources from villagers in the vicinity just to break even). Even 50 wood for a mosque to make influenced villagers work 10% faster won’t make sense for smaller groups until at least Castle Age, and the villager boost isn’t game breaking by any means. Getting ALL your villagers working 10% faster in Feudal age isn’t worth more than 2-4 additional villagers, and you still have to pay wood to do it. Heck, we may find it needs to be more like 15% rather than 10% (though I think 15% might be too strong in late game).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I think this design provides 2 compelling options for Feudal Age that can be practically balanced into viable paths without being overpowered. They also create an interesting dynamic with Delhi players wanting to build mosques all over the place beyond just research influence. I think it’s a major improvement that would make the civ more fun, more versatile, and more unique.

Edit: if you like the idea, PLEASE like the post. Being 112 posts down in a thread, it’s not super easy to grab attention. I can no longer edit the first post (since mods merged threads), and a new thread would technically be redundant.

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Honestly a certain game picturing a cyberpunk universe had as much bug and was as much playable and it got a huuuuge shitstorm in the face. I don’t understand why the majority is so nice with AoE4.
If i knew i wouldn’t pay for it even at 30euro. This game isn’t even finished - for my standards - feel like i’m playing an middle stage early access !
After all this years waiting to get a next gen STR game we deserved better and by far. It was my thought before winter-patch still is and even after the springald nerf it will still be. Because springald should have been at their future nerf state at the game release !

The issue with sanctity was that there were 4 strategies to play when you played against Delhi since early feudal sacred sites was so insanely strong. You could go full feudal horseman, full feudal archers, full feudal spears or a combination of the above.

Right now you can capture sacred sites around 8.5 minutes. If they fixed Delhi research bugs you would be able to capture them around 6-6.5 minutes (with +40 hp prelates), perhaps faster if people are better at fast feudaling than me, which actually seems pretty reasonable and maybe a potential strategy.

I can tell you why

  1. AoE4 was in a massively better state at launch than Cyberpunk was. If you think that AoE4 deserves the same level of criticism that that game did, you didn’t play Cyberpunk on launch.
  2. Cyberpunk was delayed multiple times. As much as people say AoE4 should have baked another year, you’re never going to find all the bugs just because you extend development time. Delaying a game both angers/disappoints players, and raises expectations exponentially.
  3. It was an incredibly stable launch. It launched without problems, ran well on 99% of machines, it didn’t crash to desktop at all, there were almost no game breaking bugs showing up immediately, and peoples complaints were mostly about UI and hotkeys. As the game was played there were several bugs found, but in general the game played very well, and discussions shifted to balance.

As far as bugs and exploits go, people forget how good we have it today with our hotfixes and patches. Games in the past didn’t launch without bugs and exploits, they just didn’t have the expectation that it would be fixed right away like we do today, and competitive multiplayer just wasn’t as big of a deal. AoE2 multiplayer was unplayable at launch because of bugs and exploits, and Ensemble didn’t get around to patching it for almost a year. Once they did, they tried to force players to buy the expansion to get the patch.

" 2. Cyberpunk was delayed multiple times. As much as people say AoE4 should have baked another year, you’re never going to find all the bugs just because you extend development time. Delaying a game both angers/disappoints players, and raises expectations exponentially."
Simple Cyberpunk was almost finished at launch. AoE4 is still in a early testing stage but was released. I give far more credit to CDProjekt that have the decency to give us a finished game with ton of bugs than a unfinished, non-refined non-understood by their own devs AND bugged as hell videogame ! You are far too nice with one and far to strict with the other.

“there were almost no game breaking bugs showing up immediately” You are not talking about AoE4 i hope. Seriously open your eyes there is so much bug and missconception we can’t even be sure if something is a bug or intended ! There is Exploit every corner, hitbox bug, AI is dumber than one developped in 2000. There is a looooot of features designed like a litteral bull ■■■■, the different Unit interactions aren’t well designed and refined (because the game is far from finished) and we payed 60 euro for an early access you braindead genius.

" AoE4 was in a massively better state at launch than Cyberpunk was"
I played both on launch on PC (not Xbox360 like other dummys that are the very reason of the complain btw). You are wrong. You are just blindly following the mass good bye

I’ll propose

  1. Honed blade in the blacksmith for castle age.
    2.Eco tech slgihtly faster (waiting to see the scholar research time reducing debugged first though) with 5 to 10 % more efficient to egal other civs eco bonus.

Feudal got an eco buff allowing Delhi to turtle up or counter early aggresion or even make use of it’s versatility. Without any strong/armored unit for Delhi in early it will depend on the player ability to choose wisely their unit at the right time because other civ got stronger or easier answer.
And honed blade on blacksmith allow delhi to take advantage of gold intensive unit as an alternative to elephants without being enslaved by the landmark (still the landmark stay quite good even without honed blade ). Add to that research time for Imp reduce and Delhi got a strong buff not game breaking imo.
Unlike you Orion i ask no fix for sanctity other than time research debug because before that we can’t be sure of the real effect of the nerf on it.
Finally the 5 to 10% efficency for eco tech may be too strong in late game honestly but i’ve checked all other civs they all got free or easy to get +15, 20, 40 and mongols 50 % gathering rate that’s insane ! The free tech upgrade can’t definetly be compared to that ! =o

The only fix I can think of is to allow only one blacksmith to be built at a time for all civilizations. It will counter Delhi’s OP tactic. They don’t have to x15 the imperial research anymore.
One thing I really really wanted as a buff for Delhi is to allow their infantry to be able to build watchtowers. They are really weak against early rushes. But at the same time I know this is a very OP change.

Yah, infantry building outposts would be super OP. Infantry building stone walls and towers in Castle Age is already one of Delhi’s strongest tactics (granted, it’s one of the only things Dehli has going for them right now).

I don’t think all the techs rolling in is as big an issue as it’s made out to be. 1 blacksmith is too few. Maybe 2 blacksmiths. I’m not sure. I think research needs to be longer than x5 in imperial, but definitely not x15. It’s a frustrating situation either way - I can understand why people feel Delhi getting all their techs in for free shortly after hitting imp is a problem, but it’s equally useless to not be able to get ANY techs in for several minutes after getting to imp. Right now Delhi players basically don’t imp in 1v1 because you spend a bunch of resources with zero benefit for several minutes after the landmark is complete.

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Wait someone is trying to compare AOE4 launch to cyberpunk. That is hilarious. Cyberpunk was so bad that Playstation literally had to remove the game from it’s store since it was so buggy it was borderline unplayable, save games corrupted and were unable to be resumed etc.

Sure AOE4 had some balance issues and a few exploits, but most of them took weeks to discover even with tens of thousands of people playing. Sure patch times are a bit slow, but that is largely because of the annoying certification process on every patch.

The game is arguably worth $60 for just the campaign which works fine and is basically bugfree.

Ps: Fix Delhi, Im sad my 2nd favorite civ is so bugged :frowning:

Imo and if you check higher level delhi players. Delhi needs to be extremely proactive to compete. From tower rushes to early walls etc. This idea that you sit back and que research and boom to castle Imperial just doesn’t work on most land maps predominantly bc other civs just boom faster and earlier than delhi.

So start pushing the issue early with delhi and make pikes to wall off deer batches in dark age and eventually wall of sacred sites. Tower rush Rus, HRE, French age 1 gold mining to force them to slow produce their gold units or research blacksmith in order to ram your tower.

The more time you buy via delay and killing villagers the sooner your free researches will catch up and then pay off.

There are many many many bugs but the civ is till viable in pro games.

I’ll concede that Delhi late game is weak. Been playing a lot of Delhi and they are D tier on team games unless you attempt to get a sacred site victory. Their water is not so bad, but not practical on team games were Rus just swarm Lodya Attack ships. IMO they nerfed sanctity, because a lot of Delhi were wining team games easily. It still feels like a one trick pony for team games. Either win with sacred victory or mass elephants behind your team.

Now, I’m not backing down that Delhi has among the strongest feudal comps. Incorporating 3-6 scholars into an all-in is enough to take down most TCs and then click-up to castle (just to seal the deal). Like other’s have stated, Delhi relies on distractions and map control for success. Heavy wood line economy.

Scholar activity is also heavily encouraged. Switch them throughout the game from research to unit production, and get a few on the field at all times. Use your field scholars as relic collectors or sacred site captures.

We do need the bugs fixed tho.

Multiple blacksmith being OP ? Am i dreaming seriously?

you mean. In the Delhi’s player don’t bother researching it when they got to Imperial ?

This is op. You’ll get an early dark age aggression from delhi that will wall you out of the map AND pressure your gold/wood line with outpost. EVEN WITHOUT PLACEMENT it won’t be funny of either side.

I can’t see that as a problem since you’ll never reach that point with any civ on 1v1 anyway. Plus only people that never played the game should see it as strong. In fact you Delhi will rarely get tech advantages and other civ have more and stronger unique tech that give them around +3 on a stats that Delhi’s blacksmith give (armor/damage).
AND Delhi have the weakest eco - pls don’t count free tech as an eco bonus it’s not - of the game wich mean you’ll never ever beat anyone from that.

It’s been sayed again and again but Delhi’s Military AND eco is the weakest on paper and that’s the main issue.
We shouldn’t think that Delhi will change drastically only because scholar will apply the time reduction correctly. It will only give a better timing for their techs late feudal and after. but those generic tehc are not game changing with only a generic army/eco. they definitly need something more and sanctity is not that thing they should rely on

Edit:

But other civ player don’t need it to win against delhi. That’s why you are discussing about delhi’s issues, you need to be better than your oppent to MATCH their strength. Not getting a win, match them !
But of course a far better player than you can beat you even with delhi. Thanks god it’s the case or the game would be definitly toxic ! Isn’t it ?

If on paper their is an issue, no matter the skill level that issue will appear. You’ve seen springald dominating the meta in high to mid elo for a reason. and that’s why i say the level of an individual shouldn’t be an argument or we can just say there is no issue with delhi right now and the only issue is the skill level of the player you decide to pick on. But you don’t see high levle play delhi often do you ? how many Rus/chinese/mongols you see compared with the number of delhi ? That’s all you need to know as proof that the civ is either weak, not fun or both.