那或许确实是我孤陋寡闻了。
因为我自己是一个模组作者，看过很多明代清代的军事图画，里面出现过大量的火绳枪、回旋炮、长矛、弓箭等武器，但是从来没有出现过连弩。
而不管是明代还是清代，相关的文本记载，我也没有听说过中国军队依然在配备连弩，或者把它当成是某种实战武器。明清时代几乎在任何对历史战役的记录文本中，都没有连弩这种东西作为正规军备的出现。
所以我说他更像是民间的玩具，因为它实战效果很差，射程很近。
2 Likes
另外就是如果有这张图片更高清的版本，我或许可以翻译一下它上面写的文字。这张图我实在看不清他写的是什么。
1 Like
They didn’t want players to have a easy time making units that aren’t unique to the civilizations so they made it harder to afford them so they are limited support units. If Asian civilizations could make European Artillery or other units like normal then that would make them stronger and get more complaining about those civilizations being too good while being less unique.
Let’s take a look at Japan with the Japanese Isolation that is easier to get units because they don’t come in batches and are units unique to Japan further showing intent.
I personally love the Consulate system for the Asian civilizations in AoE III.
2 Likes
《天工开物》介绍这种连弩的时候讲到：“技巧虽工，然其力绵甚，所及二十余步而已，此民家防窃具，非军国器。”
同时期的《武备志卷一百三·軍资乘·战·器械二·一》也介绍说：“（诸葛弩）东南人喜用之，然力轻而不能伤人。”
同上：“此弩懦夫闺妇皆可执以环守其城，一弩连发十矢，铁簇涂以射虎毒药，发矢一中人马见血立毙……”
简单来说这是一种攻击力非常弱小，射程非常近，在守城的时候，一般是民间百姓用来防贼用的。而当政府需要百姓合作时，这种民间武器自然可以由城中的懦夫、女性可涂上毒药使用。
需要注意的是在皇权时代的中国，朝廷对于民间私人拥有武器的限制是极为严格的。私藏武器铠甲不仅要杀头，甚至是要抄家诛九族的。而连弩不在此列是，那也就是意味着这种东西在朝廷眼里和弹弓一样，是普通老百姓可以私藏，而对朝廷没有任何威胁的东西。
无论如何，这都不可能是明清军队的正规装备。简单来说就像是玩具。
你给出的图虽然我看不清楚，但大体上是一张训练图，如果是训练图作为民兵训练之法的话，那我觉得出现在这里是合理的，但这并不意味着连弩就是明清战场中的武器，最多可以当成是民夫用以自卫的非正规工具之一。
谷歌翻译：
When introducing this kind of crossbow, “The Exploitation of the Works of Nature” said: “Although the skill is good, its power is very limited, and it can only reach more than 20 steps. This is a private weapon to prevent thieves, not a military weapon.”
The same period “Wubeizhi Volume 103·Military Resources·War·Equipment II·I” also introduced: “(Zhuge Crossbow) Southeast people like to use it, but the power is weak and cannot hurt people.”
The same: “This crossbow can be used by cowards and ladies to defend the city. One crossbow can fire ten arrows in a row. The iron tip is coated with poison for shooting tigers. If an arrow hits a person or horse, it will die immediately…”
In short, this is a kind of weapon with very weak attack power and very short range. When defending the city, it is generally used by civilians to prevent thieves. When the government needs the cooperation of the people, this kind of civilian weapon can naturally be used by cowards and women in the city with poison.
It should be noted that in the imperial era of China, the court had extremely strict restrictions on private ownership of weapons by civilians. Not only would the private possession of weapons and armor be punished by death, but also the family would be confiscated and the nine clans would be exterminated. The fact that the crossbow is not included in this list means that in the eyes of the court, this kind of thing is like a slingshot, which is something that ordinary people can keep privately and does not pose any threat to the court.
In any case, this cannot be the regular equipment of the Ming and Qing armies. Simply put, it is like a toy.
Although I can’t see the picture you gave clearly, it is generally a training picture. If it is a training picture as a method of militia training, then I think it is reasonable to appear here, but this does not mean that the crossbow is a weapon on the battlefield of the Ming and Qing dynasties. At most, it can be regarded as one of the informal tools used by civilians for self-defense.
2 Likes
The caption under it said it was from a work called 兵技指掌圖說, and another said 兵技指掌图说. I linked to it in the original comment.
I’m aware it’s not a standard military weapon, but I think uniqueness should carry some weight. I’d imagine a big part of what military garrisons would be doing would be driving off bandits so it would have its uses even if it wasn’t used in pitched battles.
几乎就可以这么说，诸葛弩这种东西，绝大多数中国人了解它都是通过一部小说，也就是三国演义。为了突出故事的重要主人公之一，诸葛亮的技术水平。
然后或许是这种东西看上去很精巧。然后开始被帝国时代或者是文明率先用作中国的特殊单位。从此之后全世界都知道了这种东西，但其实中国历史上一些更具特色的在战场上发挥更明确作用的武器和兵种就全都被忽略了。
不仅仅是诸葛弩，游戏当中的神火飞鸦也是非常非常小众的，在历史上几乎没有记录过有实战经历的东西。而那种被称作轻型迫击炮的东西，也很难说他跟中国历史有什么关系，在决定版出来之后，中国玩家社区经过讨论才认定这种东西大概是元代和明代早期的碗口炮，但事实上形象相差也很大，更像是欧洲的迫击炮。
然后就不说游戏当中所有的单位不管是穿的衣服还是盔甲还是使用的武器，除少数个别外都非常非常奇怪。我就不吐槽了，因为实在是太多了。就只能说假如对中国历史，尤其对中国军事是稍有了解的话，只能忍着玩。
1 Like
出自道光年《兵技指掌图说》
“ 将前脚尖对准靶心，前膝盖住脚面，后腿掤直，脚宜斜顺，身子对正靶心，立住䐝子骨，气向下沉，前手拏住托靶，将月拐放在前腿根，攥紧托靶，力向后收，箭匣端正，右手推匣挂弦，眼由斗内，照靶心用力扳弓，发箭宜平宜速，弩弓练法当如此”
但这只是一个练习指南，实际上正如你所说，正经战场几乎没有单兵用弩记录。西方人对诸葛弩的刻板印象始终是来自于拉尔夫爵士于 1901年出版的《弩之书》（The Book of Crossbow）。稍微懂点弓弩原理的人也知道，这种连发弩不可能有太大威力。至于那张著名的石缝炮台之战“连弩”照片，更有可能是士兵的个人物品或者大型城防弩。
“连弩”到底是什么，其实已经有相当多人考究过，基本上认定不同时代文献中的“连弩”各有所指。明清记录里的“诸葛连弩”仅仅是被附以诸葛亮的名字，和历史上诸葛亮使用的“元戎弩”并无关联。
2 Likes
在有图的这一页看不出来什么东西，因为单纯就是纯教学，然后我翻到了这本书的序言序言部分写的比较明确。
作者大概就是说军事训练很重要，他举出了历史上的一些例子，然后结合最近民团的训练，他写了这本书，其中尤其需要注意的是骑术、步操、火枪、弓箭、刀、长矛、藤牌，这些是正式的军事上会使用的武器。
然后就是因地制宜，也就是考虑到一些特殊的地区或地点，要做一些变通，因此，他特意「添设」两种武器，向军队中部分人教授，一个是连环铜炮，一个是诸葛连弩。
所以从这一描述也更加证明了，一般情况下清朝的正规军是不会用诸葛连弩的。但是作者认为在某些地点某些地区的某些人是可以用得上的。
我认同您说的。我看了这本书序言，序言写得很清楚，作者认为在某些特殊的地点需要向特殊的部分人教授连环铜炮和诸葛连弩这两种东西，而前面列举出的骑术射箭刀枪火枪以及藤牌之类的，才是清朝正规军会使用的东西。
又引出一个问题，就是藤牌手这种东西在明朝和清朝都是非常主力的步兵单位，但是在游戏中居然做成了少林寺的东西，少林寺跟腾牌手有什么关系？
藤牌兵兴起于抗倭战争，少林僧兵打过抗倭战争，大概如此？
好吧……看来当年的开发人员根本不知道中国的藤牌手穿什么样。
而一般至少在华人的传统观念里，少林寺最著名的应该是僧棍。如果做棍僧，像帝国时代四那样，大概会合理的多。
游戏大部分单位的设计能在鱼鹰社（Osprey）出版的书籍中找到出处。以现在的目光看，他们出的书存在很多想当然的描述，但是在二三十年前也没什么更好的参考了。
3 Likes
我还听过一种说法，就是帝国4在设计之初是根本没有考虑诸葛努这种东西。我推测或许是帝国时代四的考据工作做得比较好，开发人员觉得不该加入。但在最后的时刻被更上面的决策者要求加进去的，因为觉得这是帝国时代系列的重要元素之一。
所以每次看到外国人说诸葛努如何重要，不该在帝国时代系列中剔除，假如对方给出的理由是帝国时代系列的风格和灵魂，我还勉强可以接受，假如说这个东西有实战，我真的非常忍不住。
2 Likes
I would rather keep the outdated weapons of Chu Ko Nu, Flame Thrower and Flying Crow and introduce the Three-eyed Gunner and Langxian Pikeman as new units. It could be simple and easy to introduce the new units by replacing the German ally with the Chinese Isolate.
Those units, while perhaps outdated for the game’s timeline, are at least authentic. The only completely unreasonable thing is the meteor hammer used on horseback, so it could be most practical that you once suggested to replace it with “Valiant Cavalry” (驍騎) with a long qiang lance. But still, I believe that those units that have been in the game for many years have their fans, and they are the smallest and most tolerable things of the various inaccuracies in the civs.
4 Likes
India could get Paiks, infantry archers and much of their current roster could become mercenaries.
Sepoys would work as a mercenary given that many european powers utilized them in their many wars, as would the Gurkha. The sowar too.
For new infantry, i could see Matchlockmen, some kind of spearman, maybe even replace the zambarouk with a mounted matchlock.
India could also use some better mercenaries too: Cassay Horseman (Technically Burmese), Purbiyas/Biradaris (Matchlock/Sepoy), Silladar (Sowar), Lascarin (Some kind of archer or infantry), Gosain (Shock infantry), Huzurat (perhaps Spahi), Bargi (Oprichnik)
1 Like
When did I ever say they should have the exact same units? And why do people always respond this way to my complaints about the consulate?
They already have the exact same units, just gated behind a shitty mechanic. They even get these units automatically upgraded for no extra cost. Indians even missed out on horse-mounted units in their stupidly-named caravanserai except they can get some from Ottomans. It makes no sense for Indians not to get horse-mounted units.
Being part of the age of empires tradition is only part of it.
What alternative for archaic light infantry would there realistically be instead of Chu Ko Nu?
The generic “Crossbow” is taken by the European civs and other types of distinct Chinese crossbows were just as rare or not suitable for a light infantry unit.
All the various kinds of hand cannons are attached to polearms so are more suitable for a musketeer, not light infantry.
The best option left would be Manchu Bowmen but that would be a little odd coming in at age 2 when China should be more Ming and would overlap somewhat with the cavalry Manchu. It would also be mechanically very boring compared to Chu Ko Nu.
Contrast that with Chu Ko Nu that are:
- Iconic for China, especially in the AoE aeries
- Mechanically very unique in their function
- Widely used during the time period
The only drawback is some guy hundreds of years ago said they were a woman’s weapon. And despite that they still saw occasional use by militias and garrisons.
1 Like
There’s still room for improvement even with only minimal changes like updating a few names.
Arquebusier → Niǎoqiāng
Hand Mortar → Crouching Tiger Cannon (would be nice if it was also stronger and 2 pop)
Maybe swap around the names for Keshiks and Manchus?
I agree with Meteor Hammers being the most ridiculous, but there isn’t a great fit to replace it without any changes. It would be pushing it to give Valiant Cavalry a spear with 4 range since that exceeds even Winged Hussars with their extremely long spears. And after upgrades the name “Exalted Valiant Cavalry” sounds a little over the top.
Replacing Meteor Hammers with a different unit type like a light cavalry might be a better option and could patch some of China’s biggest weaknesses (they struggle vs lancer compositions because everything that trains with Keshiks is too squishy to hold up). The Ming had a big variety of war carts that could fit in here. They are a fairly early unit so maybe they could actually replace Keshiks in the Ming banner army and Keshiks could be a more elite unit in the Forbidden banner army.
I still think Flamethrowers are a bit too out there being from the Song dynasty at the latest. They have other problems such as being confused with artillery (it’s not intuitive that falcs counter them and not culvs). And they are kinda awkward with their short range (but would quickly be OP with only small buffs). Rocket pod troops would look so much cooler, not be confused with cannons, and could be given a practical amount of range without being broken due to needing to reload. The old Flamethrower could be kept around in a few shipments like Year of the Dragon and have its stats increased enough to make that card actually good.
1 Like
Archers are a good choice, not necessarily limited to the Manchus.
Because foot archers have always been the traditional basic military units of China, whether in the Tang, Song, Ming or Qing dynasties. The reason why archers in the Qing Dynasty are famous is more because of horse archery, not foot archery. The emperor of the Qing Dynasty once said that the Qing Dynasty was founded by “mounted archery”. The most important assessment for the Eight Banners disciples was mounted archery, which corresponds to the Manchurian mounted archer in the game (the appearance in the game is very weird).
Considering that Zhuge Crossbow is an infantry unit, Chinese MOD authors generally replace Zhuge Crossbow with archers when remaking Chinese units (Ming Dynasty in “Fire and reform”, Qing Dynasty in “Seven Years War”), or hold a swarm of bees (Ming Dynasty in “Tianming”).
5 Likes