Tatars only way to handle some of the heavy elephants civs like Persians / Khmer / Vietnamese is by producing flaming camels … as their halbs are very poor missing most armor upgrades
Flaming camels are only cost effective if you manage to hit a group of units at once, and is one time use.
This is normally fine in team settings where gold is not limited. But in 1v1 this is impossible to keep up and in most cases the elephant civ comes up on top
Suggestion: make flaming camels cost 20 gold instead of 30
I agree with buffing flaming camels, but Tatar halbs are not any less viable vs elephants.
The only difference is vs Khmer elephants they die in 3 hits instead of 4. But if take into account the trample damage, halbs with +2 or even +3 armor still die in 3 hits.
This and also:
Reduce training time from 20 seconds to 12 seconds.
Speed increased from 1.3 to 1.43.
The unit is supposed to be a strong anti cavalry UU, but currently it trains so slowly and is just slower than any cavalry (besides Boyars and Elephants), by the time you get those (after researching Timurid Siegecraft) enemy Cavalry is simply raiding you and dodging the very few you can even make… great for a “anti Cavalry” flaming camel.
According to the combat simulator, flaming camels are very cost-effective even against paladins (theoretically):
I’m not saying they don’t need a buff, but they aren’t useless either. It’s a straight forward castle unit (after 1 tech), and it can beat one of the most expensive units in the game (research & individual cost). They even beat Persian War Elephants.
Maybe they need to have a more support-ish role? Tatar halbs are excessively weak…
You have to hit certain amount of units at once to be cost effective … which isn’t always the case, and you have to hit the right units … so if there is a mix archer / halbs / cav its not that effective
Its also a one time use … and the advantage you get isnt as strong as using halbs which costs no gold at all
Fair enough. But Tartars get Heavy Camel, Halbs with Blast Furnace, and even the Keshik are pretty sturdy for 40 gold (up to 160 HP). Even massed Cav Archers can counter strong units, like Cavaliers. They also have Hussar to raid, and keep the opponent chasing around.
Heavy Elephants are pretty difficult to mass in a competitive game. I just say that Tartars are way better than civs like Turks dealing with Cavalry/Elephants, and they also have options to play the game. (Turks for instance, can just auto-resign if a Persian player masses Elephants, but why should the other player get to that point?).
I think that Flaming Camels should be buffed carefully.
Too much RNG involved. There’s a massive risk they’ll just explode without killing anything. I also think their damage should not be limited to just cavalry. If they did damage to all land units including siege, instead of just being anti cavalry, I think we would see them used a lot more. That way it could act as a land version of the demo ship.
But why should Tartars have exclusive access to this technology? In hybrid maps, demo ships counter almost all types of land units. Tartars already have good archers, camels, cav archers, light cav, and even spammable gold melee cav.
Making flaming camels good all-around sounds nice on paper, but it would have a lot of bad implications. Many civs depend on melee-oriented combos.
Flaming camel produced in Siege workshop, replacing bbc in UI. Not in castle is also technically cheaper.
Maybe but ranged units and castles can still pick them off before they hit. It would still be a risky strat whatever the case. Flaming camels alone also wouldn’t win you the game either. Even if you kill most their army with some big Flaming Camel shots, you won’t have any army left either. So you still have to follow it up with something else like a siege push. Meanwhile the enemy will have chance to get back into the game, spam trash to stabilise etc.
In multiplayer every strategy is optimized. The problem is that the meta would become something like Cavalier/Hussar + Flaming Camel, or even Cav Archers. Flaming Camels would be used to deal with pikemen, or another counter to your main unit, and it would be very OP/lame. It would very naive as well from a player to allow this window, of making a fragile siege push and allowing a comeback.
Also, not all civs have powerful ranged units late game. The game would feel very strange. Anyhow, Tartars have very powerful bonuses, and they are doing well in later stages of tournaments.