Building foundations should take 2-3x times damage, as a soft address to “quick” walling, and house walling behind, overall resulting in more punishment for being too greedy.
After this new options to increase the viability of eco/defensive play can be explored, such as cheaper and slower to build stone walls.
quick walling takes skill and is fun. why do you want to ‘address’ it? what’s the problem you are addressing?
Nobody is stopping you from quick walling. But like this it will also reward quick reaction from the attacker to kill the palisade fast enough.
And it is really needed to address rewalling, scout rushing is effectively dead, as is any strategy not involving archers in feudal. Crossbows also dominate in castle, this will level the field a bit by making walling out individual knights harder.
they alredy take 2x damage
Imo they should have a higher negative melee armour
It’s ok if ranged units are blocked the same. And even if the just slap on a ## or something it will help a lot
petards doing 2x dmg to building foundations would be a great buff.
why would i use PETARDS on foundations?
To reward use of premade, or the making of petards in general to stop a castle drop before completion, or at least to induce as much damage as possible with the least investment.
yeah? the least investment? that would be siege man. you know, those units that don’t die on impact?
furthermore - when people talk about nerfing foundations, they talk about it because of quick walling. Petards aren’t going to impact quick walling.
petards are great for a few things, such as anti mangonel and scorpion in key situations, as well as a cheaper investment in the early boom phase than building a siege workshop and multiple mangonels.
a solid 4 built early are well and able to counter a nearby castle drop if created early on. with a given x2 damage to the foundations via petards, those 4 would be generally all one would need to safely deny a castle drop, while 2 would be able to do well enough. and even if you’re building them as a complimentary reaction to a castle being dropped, it greatly reduces the needed number of petards to possibly deny the castle in key situations where such reactionary methods mean that the castle would be up long before you finish the needed amount to deny it, or, at the very least, greatly increase the ability to induce heavy damage while the castle is in its building phase so as to punish its drop so close into enemy lands with an already existing castle in-play.
Mangonels are only a counter to castle drops if you fire at the ground it’ll appear or have enough numbers to hit it and kill it before too much hp arrives. Sure, you could hit the villagers, but you’re more likely to be sniped that way via an enemy counter stroke, dodged with movement and ignored while the building of the castle continues.
Quick walling, on the other hand, if nerfed with x2 or even x3 dmg on the other hand must, absolutely, come with a buff to completed structures back to pre-nerf levels on top of being buffed further.
Well, if you want less defensive play, AoE3 foundations take 4 time the damage they normally take.
AoE2 is more geared towards defense in the base and micro of light infantry if you go archer-line.
That said, it can be inferred that Ensemble studios saw quickwalling in 2 and decided to make sure it would be extremely hard in 3 (still can be done)
so in this imaginary situation the mangonels/scorpions don’t kill this slow moving unit on the approach and they are unguarded? someone is attacking with just a mangonel and scorpions? no pikes or archers?
what. so you just float 650 stone for a castle during a boom?
so in this imaginary situation you already have a castle up when you are being castle dropped? and also had time to make the pe###### so your opponent is castle dropping you really late, and is doing this without any army to defend against a few petards?
denying a castle usually doesnt happen by destroying the foundation, but by killing/pushing away the villagers building it.
I personally would mostly make it that you don’t get 100 % refund when you started to build a foundation.
Just make it maximum 80 % Refund or something like this.
With cumans, bohemians and saracens we also have 3 civs that have really strong backwalling tools even IF they actually complete the respective buildings.
Scorpion shots are well and able to be kited even by slow moving petards.
Mangonels take some element of surprise to pull off but are well and able to be done as long as the petard gets close while the mangonel is distracted or unmicroed. For instance, if the Mangonel is attacking a tc, the petard pops out of said tc suddenly and the mangonel only has a key moment to react or flee just long enough and hope it doesn’t get caught prior to ally units coming to counter the petard. There will be no warning bell for petards, except for when the target is already eliminated.
If you’re getting attacked by archers, then of course the answer is mangonels of your own, however one may still supplement with petards even then to counter key situations. Albeit later in the age since adding towers may be key to early survival against mass feudal archers which delays the castle creation, at least unless a mass of skirmishers are made to specifically protect the town center grounds, which tends to hurt the boom even more, but may till be an option to consider if taking into account the bonus of having an earlier castle or not.
Anyways, if foundations are to take x2 or x3 dmg from units, then of course that counts petards as well, which is why this is technically on-topic and an effect of this thread to take into account.
so how often has this happened?
your opponents are attacking you with just siege and no units to protect them? I would like to see a rec, because this sound entirely fictional. I can believe trying to kill a ram that’s attacking a castle, but killing mangonels with petards is absurd unless they are unguarded
and denying a castle drop with petards is also absurd because you rarely castle drop someone who already has a castle up
as often as I think to do it and get dropped or attacked by mangonels accompanied by supporting units, such as knights that happen to be often looking for an opening and paying minimal attention to the area of the mangonel except to perhaps snipe a mangonel that would be used to attempt to counter the mangonel, but what they do not expect is a petard in a blink and miss it moment.
Similar with archers, which are to be microed and seek openings, and given a clear window, the petard will attempt to kill the mangonel while the archers are distracted, such as when being chased by another mangonel and increasing the enemy player to shift their focus on their archers rather than their mangonel, which may be moved to try and counter the other mangonel, but even then there is now more happening on screen, and more likely a petard will gently slip by one’s attention.
There are times when an opponent will carefully pay attention, and those are well and good, but even those will have moments where their attention is split elsewhere more demanding, and in that moment, strike.
Sometimes mangonels will come in 2’s and be close together, that’s the perfect opportunity to get a 2 for 1 deal.
And when you castle drop, do you expect that suddenly there’ll be 3-4 petards popping out within the first 10-20% of the build of the castle and then without warning it goes pop?
You seriously use petards against siege over cav? Why would you even think about that, the unit is, and should continue to be trash in almost every situation.
I’m still calling bullshit on both of these.
For killing siege:
Firstly you need to be in a situation where you already have a castle up when you are being pushed by mangonels. The timing just doesnt make sense
Then that opponent also needs to leave his mangonels unguarded and also isn’t paying attention to them so you can approach
As for denying a castle >foundation< it’s similar. Why is anyone castle dropping a player who already has their own castle? And even then this would have to be WITHOUT any army support