I too think that. But it is also not necessary for them to have. What if we replace it with something situational bonus? For example knight +2 attack vs monk which helps only against monk with Fervor researched (And Aztecs + Bengalis). Not totally going out of the theme of civ design but a very situational instead of a granted bonus in all maps.
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Iâm not trying to imply Berbers are weak. My point is its not a crazy civ comparable to Franks or other top tier civs in terms of early eco. Faster vills is like 3-4% faster farming pre wheelbarrow and almost negligible afterwards. Yes its good for fishing ships but with no dark age bonus youâd most probably lose water in hybrid maps.
Cavalry discount and tech tree diversity is the thing balances the lack of direct eco bonuses. Youâd need to make almost 40 cavalry units to get even with Franks resourcewise. And Franks get all of those resources in under 25 mins which is much more powerful compared to the resources saved from 40 cavalry units at around 35-40 mins.
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With the huge changes to other civs, particularly around buffing infantry (lower pike costs and upgrade times), coming in April, is that an indirect nerf to all Cavalry civs including Franks?
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Because Huns were broken. Devs didnât realize that and added unnecessary changes to all the civs like Obsidian arrows.
Thatâs the exact ratings he used for winrate comparison but you can use any starting elo. They have top-5 winrate at 2k or 2.3k+
By a whole bunch of civs you mean Chinese, Mayans, Aztecs and now Portuguese.
Mayans and Aztecs are getting a nerf in the form of eagle cost.
When someone suggested removal of berry and castle bonus your response was âoh this will make them boring with just +12 hp on Paladinâ. I was implying that they have half a dozen crazy bonuses and not just extra hp on Paladin. The berry bonus by itself is average like youâve said but paired with free mill upgrades and the pseudo free bloodlines adds up A LOT for the early game.
Thatâs why the suggestion for removing berry gather rate was suggested. Dead weak civs like Sicilians, Koreans, Bengalis or Dravidians could benefit from such a bonus.
Franks could probably have something like berries last 20% longer and something more benign and situational like cavalry garrisoned inside castles shoot extra arrows.
Ten years of insane ladder win rates, pick rates, tournament win/play rates and the fact that all other strong civs got a balance change. After dozens of new civs and content if players have best odds of winning with 23 year old civs thatâs dumb and makes the game stale.
It buffs militia line usability for some civs like Slavs, malay against meso and camel civs. But Franks counter mid game infantry with throwing. Worst part now is against masscamel or pike + few xbows, Franks themselves can make use of that tech.
A few civs like Lithuanians, Vikings will now do better against Franks and probably have an even matchup. But for the vast majority of the civs, its still going to be the same story.
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Koreans would be a good choice for the 15% faster berry bonus. war wagons, their main offensive unit is in castle age. The berry bonus would definitely help them go up quickly.
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Franks got nerfed already if we consider the massive camel new civsâŠ
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In 1v1 but what about TGs, Franks are just as abused as Britons.
Franks are dominant only on Arabia TGs, and nowadays Hindustanis and Gujaras are fav pocket picks which directly counter Franks. On closed maps, we rarely see Franks. So, in terms of TG I think they are in a decent spot. I do agree that in 1v1 Arabia their Berry bonus+Farm free upgrades+cheap castles are bit difficult to deal with. Thou, I donât feel like Franks need to be nerfed, I wouldnât mind giving the berry bonus to Koreans and reducing the castle discount to 20%. Franks can get a longer lasting berry bonus instead.
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And that doesnât justify having Franks soo dominant on Arabia TGs, that and Hindus/Gurjara camels being nerfed but Franks donât? thatâs absurd.
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In reality I dont think camel pocket is great vs knight pocket. Because most of the time pocket player are not directly fighting, they are dancing around with the cav, to absorb damage and let the crossbows do damage. And only engage when crossbows are left alone, and use knight to clean up, or at raiding. Camels does a poor job at that. So hindustani and gurjaras are quite awkward and franks are still better. It is difficult to help a flank overrun by crossbows when you only have camels.
I would prefer a civ with both camel and knight line over gurjaras and hindustani. But then their eco is not as strong as franks. Franks are top pick for a reason not just every loves franks so much.
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No they should not lose their castle bonus its very historically accurate and also they dont have an oppressive castle UU to terrorise people with castle drops
Theyve been indirectly nerfed with the pikemen upgrade getting cheaper
If any nerf should be done maybe they should lose the free heavy plow
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It is. However I donât think it is enough. Militia +1PA isnât helping against Knight. Only 55 food and 15 seconds saving fron pikeman helps.
I would change their Stone bonus into âGold miners generates Stoneâ, opposite of the poles bonus
That would give then a better eco bonus and thus helping their military since they at the end of the day have well above average archers
Then we could give the wood discount to siege as well or give then some other thing but i think a better early eco bonus is the Key
This would make them even more flexible and deadly. But it will allow.the castle bonus could be given to another civ.
Yup! Give them the Dravidian â33% cheaper siegeâ
New Spanish bonus made me realize how OP Franks scout rush is. They donât need to place mining camp to get bloodlines. So they can delay it for a while and place farms. And all farms have more food with free horse collar. If other scout rushing civs want to be better, they need 100 wood + 150 food + 100 gold + minimum 2 farms. By that time Franks player will either have more number of scouts or already clicked up to Castle Age and preparing knight with basically free bloodlines.
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Their main strength is not in the farm bonus, berry bonus and castle discount.
Those are good bonuses, but the key is still cavalry HP.
The ideal would be to no longer allow their Scouts to have free 9HP immediately after hitting the Feudal age.
But this would cause another problem that other civs can invest Bloodlines in the Feudal age while they canât, which would be quite unfair and would force them to always go FC Knights.
Therefore, maybe we can move the Bloodlines to the Castle Age. This way, the cavalry HP bonus would be reasonable when it start since the Castle age, and maintain the fair gameplay in the Feudal age.
Thereâs a lot of middle ground between full feudal where you have to pick up bloodlines to compete and fc knights. Franks would suffer extended feudals but theyâre still be able to play some feudal. To say they have to fc is a stretch.
Iâd still prefer removing one of their food bonus. 15% berry bonus is really small and a new civ can easily get over with 25% and still wonât be anywhere close to Franks.
This will still be a buff for Franks compared to other cavalry civs.
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I was talkig about koreans not Franks obviouslyâŠthey need no buff
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In 1vs 1 Franks late game is bad. They need to have a good early game otherwise they simply cannot win if the game goes equalish and then reach mid-late Franks are toasted
So Franks for how are designed now kinda need to have a great early game
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