General Balance discussion

Agree on the initial map setup.

About ca spam - imo the problem is that ranged units are pretty OP in general> @OldCartoon466 said:

I agree that chariot archers are overpowered and I think the best way around that is to give cavalry more pierce armor.

And I don’t think slingers need nerfing as they actually die to axemen hard. I think bowmen need buffing. Bowmen used to be OP in Tool in the original AoE but after RoR when slingers came along they became useless. I think bowmen are basically pointless now so they need to be buffed and then axemen need to be given + 1 pierce armor. Buff axemen and bowmen up to a level where slingers are no longer OP compartively, and this will also make Chariot archers less OP against Tool units at the same time. I suggest leaving slingers as they are but giving axemen + one pierce armor and bowmen + 1 range and a slightly faster fire rate. But not so much that they’d actually be cost effective against slingers. Similarly, I think 1 less range and a slightly reduced fire rate for chariot archers might work nicely.

:expressionless:

I don’t think this will help at all. The issue with Bowmen is that they’re “dead meat”. They’re useless because they don’t scale into Bronze Age at all. buffing their range etc. to make them better won’t help, especially if you give Axes pierce resistance aswell.

chariot Archers are mostly fine aswell, all that would be necessary is to reduce their normal range by 1. This way you can counter Chariot Archers with Archers (regular Archers or Improved Bows) yourself, and you make slingers more viable against them.

I think hoplites are fantastic melee unit killers but they are pointless because it’s ranged units that rule the roost in this game. So I really like the idea of adding pierce armor to the cavalry line as makes them deal with chariot archers better and makes cavalry a fantastic idea. But then having a hoplite or two wrecking your base is a real problem if you’re training cavalry instead of going full chariot archers.

As a way to buff the hoplite line perhaps the aristocracy tech should be given automatically on bronze and removed as a research like the short swordsmen upgrade tech was. This makes the hoplite line 25% faster from the start but Greeks still get their even faster hoplites and their new bonus of cheaper hoplites. For all civs to have faster hoplites from the get go this would make a hoplite rush more viable in the game in general. This does also mean that the centurion upgrade would be available to research immediately on Iron Age as Aristocracy wouldn’t be required.

:expressionless:

don’t. Hoplites are insanely strong units and are very cost efficient. Buffing their initial speed by 25% will make everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, spam Hoplites ever from early Bronze Age until the end. This will be far more imbalanced than the Chariot Archer spam you’re complaining about.

I’m currently using Greek/Mace and Sumerians in 1v1 and use Hoplites to great efficiency. All you need to is to have a core of Hoplites and use barracks units (slingers) or a few cav units to cover them up while approaching ranged units will beat Chariot archer spam consistently. A mixed Hoplite army with Slingers already is one of the toughest things to face in Bronze Age, especially when against Macedons or Greeks.

IF you buff all Hoplits to the Greek level you’ll have nothing but Hoplite spam ever anymore.

I also think the infantry pierce armor techs, that ONLY work for infantry and the hoplite line… should be made drastically cheaper. Those upgrades are way too expensive at the minute.

And seen as the Macedonian hoplite line with the extra pierce armor is STILL weak to ranged units… perhaps all hoplites for all civs should have + 1 pierce armor and Macedonian should get an addtional + 1 on top of that. After all I still like the idea of cavalry getting more pierce armor.

The problem at the moment is that in Tool age bowmen are pointless but then in bronze age and iron age archer units suddenly become OP.

I don’t think that all the + armour will change all that much. A full hoplite army will die to massed archers because of the current speed difference. Back up Hoplites with other units and you’re fine.

The issue isn’t really that Archer units are completely OP. The only unit I’d consider to be OP in DE is the Composite Bowman from Minoa, but on the other hand that’s pretty much all they have, so it’s okay.

The main thing is PATHFINDING. Units being stuck while getting shot at is pretty annoying. Also, mixing an army is harder than to just spam and a-click a single unit. But if you mix counter units that are overall more cost efficient you can outsmart and counter a spammer pretty reliably. I’m currently 90% winrate with Greeks, Sumerians and Macedons and I haven’t built Chariots or Chariot Archers at all.

Archer spam isn’t the end-of-all in AoE. 1.0a is way worse, but DE improved quite significantly.

I also really like the idea of making balistas available in bronze age.

Thanks for listening.

Agree, Ballistas in Bronze might not be too bad. Would also help at countering large amounts of Archers.

@Tom4 said:
There Will always be a dominant strategy civ OR unit in competitive games.

Ä° will never accept this kind of mindset, neither should you. Search a better balance.

@“Cleglaw the mad” said:
@Tom4 said:
There Will always be a dominant strategy civ OR unit in competitive games.

Ä° will never accept this kind of mindset, neither should you. Search a better balance.

Well to his defense, he’s right. However, there’s a difference inbetween something being a “bit out of line” that can be adjusted with proper counterplay (e.g. preparing a certain counter unit) or something being broken beyond any option to fix.

Also, why can’t I quote posts properly here? I can only use those “> xxxxxxx” posts. Anyone halp?

Balancing game is all blabla. You can balance what you want, but after 3 weeks the experts alrdy find something new to exploit.
If you nerf shang, then Assy and yammy will be too dominant. Nerf them then Rome and phoeny become strong. At one point or another one civ will always be the number one.
/the same goes for units, and strategies.

teutonic tanks ;

I don’t believe in a 1 dimensional rush in this game. Unless ofcourse there is a big skill difference.
If I will be just faster and better then my opponent Axes will be just fine.
I just see it as an ‘opening move’ in relationship to slingers.

The discussion was the slingers are OP, but that’s totally bullox since they need time to mass. Axeman can be massed earlier.

In my opinion tool age is perfectly paper rock scissors, and they all have different attributes.

For example slingers are good against archers, but on the other hand archers are better peon killers.

if tool age is perfect paper rock scissors atm, then you don’t have MP experience or simply don’t have the skill to see it. sry

Also slingers got same attack vs vills as archers. Armor doesnt matter vs vills if you have micro.
On top of that scouts are totally useless vs slingers; slinger shred them like flies and on top of that the awkward pathing gives them the rest. I can’t see by any means how someone can consider that as “paper rock scissors”.
This is exactly the reason why Scouts should get 1 pierce armor and slingers should lose their +1 attack from stone mining, simply to increase the varaity of the game and make other strats working. Balancing isn’t useless by any means.

lol not enough mp experience. You crack me up. We where toolrushing in 97/98. Nobody was crying about slingers. Archer have more hp and attack. You dont know this or you just want attention?

@Tom4 said:
lol not enough mp experience. You crack me up. We where toolrushing in 97/98. Nobody was crying about slingers. Archer have more hp and attack. You dont know this or you just want attention?

Sounds to me like you should play against each other. But tbh, this statement is pretty amusing. Don’t you think that skill changes in a timeframe of almost 20 years? Go check some vietnamese player’s on youtube like this:

And check if your skill matches those guys compared to your past self in 98. If not I’d suggest to not bloat out such posts.

@“teutonic tanks” said:
if tool age is perfect paper rock scissors atm, then you don’t have MP experience or simply don’t have the skill to see it. sry

Also slingers got same attack vs vills as archers. Armor doesnt matter vs vills if you have micro.
On top of that scouts are totally useless vs slingers; slinger shred them like flies and on top of that the awkward pathing gives them the rest. I can’t see by any means how someone can consider that as “paper rock scissors”.
This is exactly the reason why Scouts should get 1 pierce armor and slingers should lose their +1 attack from stone mining, simply to increase the varaity of the game and make other strats working. Balancing isn’t useless by any means.

I’m on your side. EXCEPT for scouts getting +1 pierce armour.

Scouts don’t have a hard counter in AoE, so by making them better you’ll create a “tool age cav archer” - faster than villagers, beefy and you can pick fights with them.

I think an easier solution for the problem would be to make slinger training time a bit slower. This way Slingers will be harder to reach a “critical mass”. Also this won’t affect their performance against Archers and in early bronze to counter CAs.

Apart from that the game needs better path finding for melee units.

Nice that you played the game already 20 years ago. How should someone even cry in 97/98 if there didnt even exist anything closely as good as AoE? But things have changed. It’s way more macro based with all the improvements now making more macro based. I’m judging from games with decent players like Viper, Tatoh, nC_Skittle and Usuals from voobly.
archers have more attack? archer 3 = 2 + 1 slinger with stonemining i hope you agree with this simple math that or are you an assyria/hettiters only player 19

@ZheBoyzForum
yeah would have to be tested out, how they perform vs archers if they had +1 pierce armor. Always keep in mind scout upgrades are expensive and the unit itself is expensive and kinda slow produced. On top of that axemen can do huge dmg against them and are cost efficient as well. I’m not sure if they would be viable enough with only nerfing slinger’s attack.

I have seen These Vietnamese streams several times. I also heard on AoEzone that there is some 1v1 DE tournament runing, do you know if they have some english website somewhere?

@“teutonic tanks” said:
Nice that you played the game already 20 years ago. How should someone even cry in 97/98 if there didnt even exist anything closely as good as AoE? But things have changed. It’s way more macro based with all the improvements now making more macro based. I’m judging from games with decent players like Viper, Tatoh, nC_Skittle and Usuals from voobly.
archers have more attack? archer 3 = 2 + 1 slinger with stonemining i hope you agree with this simple math that or are you an assyria/hettiters only player 19

@ZheBoyzForum
yeah would have to be tested out, how they perform vs archers if they had +1 pierce armor. Always keep in mind scout upgrades are expensive and the unit itself is expensive and kinda slow produced. On top of that axemen can do huge dmg against them and are cost efficient as well. I’m not sure if they would be viable enough with only nerfing slinger’s attack.

I have seen These Vietnamese streams several times. I also heard on AoEzone that there is some 1v1 DE tournament runing, do you know if they have some english website somewhere?

I only know those game posts on youtube, they also have facebook groups I think. Go check out http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/index.cgi , this is like the “big” AoE 1 community zone, similar to aoczone.net. There were a couple of posts from vietnamese guys in the general discussion I think.

Imo Archers are underwhelming because you can’t make them scale in bronze age (as improved bowmen are independent units). This makes Archers to not have any advantage over Slingers. Slingers have similar range, same atack and attack rate, and are just as cheap to build (or actually cheaper, since 10 stone is gathered faster than 20 wood. And Bowmen don’t even get Bronze Shield techs and Siege Craftsmanship that Slingers get. That’s why the unit design Archer - Slinger is bad.

It might be worth trying to change the Archer system slightly.

Archers can be made into Improved Bowmen (with different stats overall), and Composite Bowmen are a seperate unit. This would also remove the issue of Improved Bowmen not getting any attention from civs that have them (since most have compies which are way superior in every way). I’m pretty sure Ensemble didn’t do this because Archer rushes are so devastating in AoE before Rise of Rome (which is why they introduced Slingers and Tower Shield upgrade in Rise of Rome expansion).

This would give Archers in Tool more room to operate, since they won’t become obsolete later on (and also allow new strategies).

All I know from scouts is that I got demolished by them every game when I faced them (which was very rare, since mostly I demolish others 11). That’s why I’m a bit biased towards buffing them. They might die to axes and the upgrades might be expensive, but they completely put the attacked player into the defensive, and outrun fights they cannot win. Instead they harass Villagers and create a lot of distraction. If microed well they’re way more hard to defeat than Scout Rushes in AoE 2 (because you can use cheap spears to protect your economy from them. In AoE 1 you need a lot more to defeat them than a couple of spearmen, so the defense cost is higher than the Offense cost. Keep in mind that to get Axes you at least need armour 75f, Axemen upgrade 100f and a couple of barracks to just be able to fight Scouts, which is a lot.

The distraction and food advantage from the Scout rusher is used to get into Bronze, and to spam Cavalry or Chariot Archers or use the time to boom. Which isn’t great and fun to play against.

So in summary, this might fix the Slinger/Archer issues, but introduce an unhealthy meta game change with less strategical options.

Nice movies, exacly how many of OP Slingers did you see in this movie??

They are just CA rushing, just like everybody did in AoE. AoE is all about killing peons. I’s not rocket science.
That’s why they buffed them up in AoK :wink:

People also cried in 98. But never about slingers. Mostly about Shang was OP, but Ensemble never cared about patching, since they where busy with AoK…

Why are you comparing upgraded unit vs unupgraded unit? With the market upgrade archer have more range Thus is better at killing peons.

@ZheBoyzForum We aren’t discussing my skill, but my ‘experience’ was attacked. …

Because i dont agree with he crying…i’m a noob…ok. I don’t blout. I just state a fact.

One very important thing you have to know about Vietnamese community: there is an agreement for everyone that, you dont kill any vills until EVERYONE is bronze age. Thats why it’s a CA-fest.

He isn’t crying really, he’s stating a couple of facts and is mostly right on his arguments. Ofc people whined back then, because RoR 1.0a and AoE 1.0a are pretty lame in terms of multiplayer gameplay. Vietnamese spam CAs because they’re OP in vAoE 1. And you can’t counter them properly unless you spam them yourself.

In DE you can at least combat them with Slingers + academy/barracks units.

Regarding the argument “upgraded vs. unupgraded” - while the +1 range is nice, it’s also more expensive to get. Stone mining is only a bit of food and stone, and the stone is in your starting stash every game after reaching tool (since you have no buildings that cost stone in Stone Age) so it doesn’t count, making the upgrade effectively 100f.

And upgraded Archers will still loose badly to upgraded slingers, while slingers also counter other units with Stone Mining.

Slingers > Archers
Slingers > vills
Slingers > Axes (with a bit of hit & run micro)
Slingers > Scouts (you’ll need a critical mass for that though)
Slingers > Towers/walls

So in total, Slingers counter other units equally or even more efficiently than Archers (even with wood cutting) and can receive a nice Bronze tech to make them even scale against CAs.
Regular Archers only get a single +1 range, no additional defense or attack from ranged units in Bronze

Slingers come from a cheaper building that also offers 2 other units (swords and Axes) in tool and bronze that complement them perfectly. While Archery Range only offers additional Archer units with significant teching (improved bows/Wheel). This makes Archery range a worse support building. Raxes/stables are better.

Overall this means that Slingers are a better choice at ranged support than Archers. I use slingers combined with Academy units and have around 80% win rate in 1v1 with it. I use Slingers every game, sometimes a lot, sometimes only a few. But I never use Archers, no matter which Civ I play.

Yes, but the Wood upgrade also benefits your economy :wink: Basicly this upgrade for Archer is free since You need this upgrade anyway for your economy.
My point is the game isnt only army vs army. Usily its army vs peons. Trying tot criple people’s economy. Archers do well killing peons.
Thats also why ca’s are dominant on open maps.

Anyways slingers are good, but You need Them massed. And as You say its Nice they come out of the barracks. So You can easily have 2/3 of Them while arriving in tool age. But to talk about Them as OP is Just ridicolous.

I also go with axemen / slinger but at one point You Will play against some dude who perfected his Archer/ kill peons strategy and You Will know what i mean.

And about bronze age, every tool age unit becomes absolete. If you say You mixing academy units with slingers You Just want to be funny. Ca/ chariots and composites/ st Will be your choice in Bronze :wink:

Lul, my post was deleted. Have to repost.

@Tom4 said:
Yes, but the Wood upgrade also benefits your economy :wink: Basicly this upgrade for Archer is free since You need this upgrade anyway for your economy.
My point is the game isnt only army vs army. Usily its army vs peons. Trying tot criple people’s economy. Archers do well killing peons.

I agree, but I don’t get the wood upgrade unless I have to (like when vills run more than 3-4 tiles to drop off their lumber. I rather invest the wood/food into the farm upgrades so I get more food from my farms instead. Since I don’t use wood heavy units food/stone/gold is of more value for me.

Eco upgrades are more valuable in Bronze anyways. More villagers, wheel, more town centers etc.

Thats also why ca’s are dominant on open maps.

The other dude said that Vietnamese only kill vills after everyone is in bronze. If that’s true it would be lulz. But I agree that a proper hit&run with Chariot Archers is pretty effective against villagers, especailly compared to other Bronze Age units.

Anyways slingers are good, but You need Them massed. And as You say its Nice they come out of the barracks. So You can easily have 2/3 of Them while arriving in tool age. But to talk about Them as OP is Just ridicolous.

I also go with axemen / slinger but at one point You Will play against some dude who perfected his Archer/ kill peons strategy and You Will know what i mean.

The only time archer rush works is when you surprise your enemy with them. If there is a single defensive barracks and the opponent notices your archery ranges you’ll need to outnumber the slingers 3 to 1 to get some proper damage. Which is 3 Archery Ranges, 450 wood (!) while all I need to counter it is 125 wood and a bit of stone. And even then I can train 10-15 Slingers from my starting stone.

that’s why Slinger rushes are better. They do not get hard countered by Towers or other archers/slingers, and will deal the same damage to vills as archers. While being produced easier, cheaper and faster.

And both units cannot be upgraded in Bronze Age, which makes archers dead weight for the most part. While slingers still do decent against CAs.

And about bronze age, every tool age unit becomes absolete. If you say You mixing academy units with slingers You Just want to be funny. Ca/ chariots and composites/ st Will be your choice in Bronze :wink:

Idk, the units you mentioned need quite a bit of teching time and cost quite a bit.

I rarely had enemies who were able to field those units in larger numbers by the time his base was wrecked by my slinger/hopper/shord swords or cav armies. And even then they were simply demolished.

But okay, since you got the experience I’m probably wrong.
Wanna do some practice matches? Add me on Xbox, name is “ZheBoyz”.

And the post is gone, again… wtf.

Anyways.

@Tom4 said:
Yes, but the Wood upgrade also benefits your economy :wink: Basicly this upgrade for Archer is free since You need this upgrade anyway for your economy.
True, but I rather get wood upgrade in early bronze when the villager travel times to the forest become longer. Afterall they only chop more wood, not faster. I rather use 200f/75w to get better farms instead.

My point is the game isnt only army vs army. Usily its army vs peons. Trying tot criple people’s economy. Archers do well killing peons.
Thats also why ca’s are dominant on open maps.

Anyways slingers are good, but You need Them massed. And as You say its Nice they come out of the barracks. So You can easily have 2/3 of Them while arriving in tool age. But to talk about Them as OP is Just ridicolous.
I also go with axemen / slinger but at one point You Will play against some dude who perfected his Archer/ kill peons strategy and You Will know what i mean.

True, however, like I said it’s less effective to spam archers than to spam slingers. Simply because Slingers are not hard countered by defensive buildings or other slingers. While archers are. And both Archers and Slingers have no direct upgrade in Bronze.

Archer rushes are only ever good if you can surprise your opponent, but it’s still hard to cripple them. All he needs is a defensive barracks and he negates a 2 range archer rush since you need to outnumber slingers at least 2-to-1 ratio. The point is that 300 wood + all the food for archers is pretty much wasted unless you kill lots of vills with your archers.

And about bronze age, every tool age unit becomes absolete. If you say You mixing academy units with slingers You Just want to be funny. Ca/ chariots and composites/ st Will be your choice in Bronze :wink:

I guess we should 1v1 sometime. Add me on xbox: ZheBoyz (or join my games, I frequently host 1v1 games in the evenings (GMT+2).

Edit: one thing I think would help the Hoplit line: lower the buildtime of the Academy and/or its cost to 100 or 125 wood. This will allow to produce Hoplites faster from multiple academies.

Wood workers work faster and carry + more

I think you need to study on the basics first before you challenge me -_-

@Tom4 said:

Wood workers work faster and carry + more

I think you need to study on the basics first before you challenge me -_-

Just tested it. They really work faster, didn’t know that. It’s stated nowhere that vills work faster, not even on aoewikis, should be added then. I thought that in AoE 1 the upgrades only increase carrying capacity unlike AoE II. Looks like it’s worth to upgrade woodworking earlier then.

Anyways, looks to me like you’re searching for excuses for not playing :disappointed:
Even though “I don’t even know the basics” I’m eager to prove myself against a progamer from 98 with all the experience…

I will play anyone from expert to noob, so for sure i will play you when i see you. But beating you doesnt make me more right or wrong.
You play greek. Nobody decent plays greek 1-1. So you either play some weird settings, or you just bashing up noobs. I wonder what your tool times are…but i doubt that you even aware what they are :wink:
Your bragging about your win % but it’s just stupid. If you would play anybody serious you would also lose many times.

I’m sorry but if you are talking about academy units in a 1-1, and dont know what woodcutting does don’t expect it to be a good game :slight_smile:

You are talking about that this is some brand new game. It isn’t. IT’s just RoR. And all strategies have already been played to death in 97-99. These vietnamese people are playing old skool AoE yammie, and assy CA bronze rushing. Nothing new.
In rise of rome toolrushing, and booming became more viable strategies. Espescially on watery maps and thats basicly what AoE DE is.

Slingers are strong in Tool age, but there are numerous ways to counter them. Did you think about bronze rushing? Or just Booming to bronze? You know how many slingers 2 cavs can eat?

In the end the better player will just win, and that’s what important.

Gl with bronze rushing or booming, it should never work as long as your enemy isn’t going afk.
At the end the guy with more slingers and better slinger micro wins.

If the AI pathfinding were greatly, improved, it might help reduce the imbalance of ranged units in general. Hard for cavalry to do anything when they just stand there, waiting to figure out how to get to the archer/chariot!

Edit: also the general lagginess of multiplayer only worsens the pathfinding problems!