# Genoese Crossbows **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652 "2020-06-23T13:25:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/22 "2020-06-26T15:20:07Z")
> [@Parthnan](#): > > > [@Sylux1000](#): > > > > The point is that if a unit fights with its counters, the fight should not be balanced at all. The counter should dominate. > > > > Fine if crossbowman vs knights is balanced, but if knights vs camels (of GCs) is balanced it is a big problem > > EXACTLY > This is the problem with Camel Riders _ **specifically** _ in Castle Age, who have only 6+9(Bonus)-2(Knight Armor) = **13 attack** vs the Knight’s 10. And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. > **So vs the Knight’s 11.** > > Similar thing has happened with GC in Castle Age and @TriRem, @DoctBaghi or @MatCauthon3 don’t even mention these two issues that need to be fixed. > > **if a unit fights with its counters, the fight should not be balanced at all** > > It is only after Imperial and Heavy Camel upgrade that Camels really counter Knight-line. Camels do wreck knights. You’re forgetting that thry train faster too, so they are not only supply efficient, and cost efficient, but time efficient too. ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/23 "2020-06-26T15:22:33Z")
> [@MatCauthon3](#): > > Camels do wreck knights. Not in Castle Age they certainly don’t “wreck” Knights. Again, another reminder that Camels have only 6+9(Bonus)-2(Knight Armor) = **13 attack** vs the Knight’s 10. And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. **So vs the Knight’s 11.** > [@MatCauthon3](#): > > You’re forgetting that thry train faster too, so they are not only supply efficient, and cost efficient, but time efficient too. To that… > [@Sylux1000](#): > > The point is that if a unit fights with its counters, the fight should not be balanced at all. The counter should dominate. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/24 "2020-06-26T15:25:55Z")
> [@Parthnan](#): > > Not in Castle Age they certainly don’t “wreck” Knights. Again, another reminder that Camels have only 6+9(Bonus)-2(Knight Armor) = **13 attack** vs the Knight’s 10. And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. > **So vs the Knight’s 11.** already showed you how one sided the trades are a long time ago. > [@Parthnan](#): > > To that… So winning cost effectively, supply effectively and time effectively isn’t dominating? ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/25 "2020-06-26T15:32:21Z")
About dominating your opponent. I’ll refer you to this. > [@Are Camels balanced?](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/are-camels-balanced/78183/97): > > i just ran 2 tests. > 1 with equal numbers (10 knights vs 10 camels) > 1 with 5 minutes worth of production (10 knights vs 13 camels) > in both tests the camels wrecked the knights. 5 camels survived the equal odds, 9 survived the equal time spent producing. > this means in the equal numbers attack the knight player lost 600 food and 750 gold, and the camels lost 275 food and 300 gold. less then half of both. > the equal time spent building the knights again lost 600 food and 750 gold, and the camels lost 220 food and 240 gold. an almost 3 to 1 exchange rate in food and better then a 3-1 exchange rate in gold. > they dont need a buff. A month ago. 10 vs 10 results show nearly double resources lost for the knight player and he spent 80 seconds more building his army. Equal time spent producing takes that double and makes it triple the resources lost. If that isn’t dominating I dont know what is. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/26 "2020-06-26T15:44:16Z")
> [@Parthnan](#): > > And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. > **So vs the Knight’s 11.** by the way stop spreading false information. The only way the knights would get extra damage out of that extra attack speed is if the fight lasted long enough for them to get an extra attack in. Extra attack speed is not going to add extra damage until well into the fight, and by that time the knight very well may be dead already. 1v1 it might matter but if youre taking 1v1 fights with camels vs knights you’re either saving time for something else or you’re not fully committed to the fight ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/27 "2020-06-26T15:50:46Z")
Can we stay on the topic for one time? ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/28 "2020-06-26T16:43:11Z")
Mat Cauthon made it specifically about Camels My initial post on camels here was totally in a comparison to the GC situation > [@Parthnan](#): > > EXACTLY > This is the problem with Camel Riders _ **specifically** _ in Castle Age, who have only 6+9(Bonus)-2(Knight Armor) = **13 attack** vs the Knight’s 10. And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. > **So vs the Knight’s 11.** > > Similar thing has happened with GC in Castle Age and @TriRem, @DoctBaghi or @MatCauthon3 don’t even mention these two issues that need to be fixed. So why are you targeting me? When I was originally totally on-topic? Tell that to @MatCauthon3 Are you singling me out because my balance posts are unpopular here (but in accordance with many pros and pro streamers) ? Or because you don’t like that I like changes and strong UUs ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/29 "2020-06-26T16:45:14Z")
I didn’t target you, you were the first who stated that camels are underpowered (and not for a comparison with the GC) so I answered to the first post that got the discussion off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/30 "2020-06-26T16:46:41Z")
It is clear that original post was clearly using Camels as an example to make my point on the GC, which is 100% ON -TOPIC. It is only when @MatCauthon3 replied only to the camel example, that it became OFF-topic. > [@Parthnan](#): > > This is the problem with Camel Riders _ **specifically** _ in Castle Age, who have only 6+9(Bonus)-2(Knight Armor) = **13 attack** vs the Knight’s 10. And the Knights attack 10% FASTER. > **So vs the Knight’s 11.** > > Similar thing has happened with GC in Castle Age and @TriRem, @DoctBaghi or @MatCauthon3 don’t even mention these two issues that need to be fixed. Now you come back on-topic instead of bringing me down to this rabbit hole ---
**Author:** ![JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jonoli12/32/50441_2.png) [@JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JonOli12)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/31 "2020-06-26T16:47:50Z")
GCs are better than Camels, by virtue of being Ranged. ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/32 "2020-06-26T16:48:47Z")
Regarding the relation between camel and GC: - camel is directly made in the stables, so it requires the same investment of knights - camels beat in equal numbers knights - camels are cost efficient vs knights On the opposite, GCs require a huge investment, the castle and they need to be massed (1v1 they loose). The point was that it is not acceptable that the only feasible fight, i.e., crossbowman + GC vs knights is balanced as more crossbowman vs knights. The huge castle investment + the extra cost of GC should make the italian player to dominate in that scenario. Otherwise he will go just crossbowman. Which is pretty undesirable for a civ having a anti-cav UU. ---
**Author:** ![CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cheshirewig3203/32/76099_2.png) [@CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CheshireWig3203)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/33 "2020-06-26T16:50:01Z")
Would be better if devs reduced their TT to 16 and 13 (elite) seconds ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/34 "2020-06-26T16:51:13Z")
Imo the TT should be equal to ckn ---
**Author:** ![JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jonoli12/32/50441_2.png) [@JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JonOli12)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/35 "2020-06-26T16:51:20Z")
Maybe, though I am still not convinced. GCs just murder Cavalry, because they are the only Ranged counter to it, and can stack damage to quickly bring single targets down, while Camels or Halbs cannot do it. ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/36 "2020-06-26T16:52:15Z")
If you have 6 castles 11 ---
**Author:** ![CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cheshirewig3203/32/76099_2.png) [@CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CheshireWig3203)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/37 "2020-06-26T16:54:48Z")
You will never mass them because they are trained slowly and castle is required. Either a huge TT buff or give them Halbs because they can do nothing vs cavalry 1v1. If you start making Genbows in the castle age your opponent tech switches and if you make them in imp you never mass them because your opponent will punish you ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/38 "2020-06-26T16:58:26Z")
Just a curiosity… is GC better than ckn vs paladins? ---
**Author:** ![JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jonoli12/32/50441_2.png) [@JonOli12](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JonOli12)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/39 "2020-06-26T16:59:19Z")
Yes, it is. It has a lot of Bonus damage. It is also better against Mangudai and Camel Archers, even Elephants. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/40 "2020-06-26T17:16:04Z")
> [@JonOli12](#): > > GCs are better than Camels, by virtue of being Ranged. But camels can pursue knights to the end of the maps, GC can hit them a few times before they are out of reach (and they need ballistics for that) then they can’t keep up. Though, if you consider that GC may hit them even when approaching, the 2 units are roughly balanced. I mean both units have good aspects, the problem is that building a castle for training a counter-unit that train so slowly it’s not worth it, camels instead are more easily accessible. > [@Sylux1000](#): > > Imo the TT should be equal to ckn Not necessarily that much, while it should be, it’s also true that italians don’t depend so much by GC like chinese are with chukos. > [@JonOli12](#): > > Maybe, though I am still not convinced. GCs just murder Cavalry, because they are the only Ranged counter to it, and can stack damage to quickly bring single targets down, while Camels or Halbs cannot do it. Yeah, that’s why most US don’t ask for a buff of its stats, problem is that they don’t win 1v1, so you need to mass them, less than a standard xbow, but still more than what you can do now. > [@Sylux1000](#): > > Just a curiosity… is GC better than ckn vs paladins? On paper, yes, but in reality since you can more easily mass chukos, they deal with cavalry a lot better. Even longbow do a better job that GC vs cavalry. ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652/41 "2020-06-26T19:39:08Z")
> [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Not necessarily that much, while it should be, it’s also true that italians don’t depend so much by GC like chinese are with chukos. The fact that GC is more situational should be one reason more. I mean, GC is useful in some situations. If you take forever to have a useful mass of GCs, you will just use a different strategy, say pikes or massing xbows [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/genoese-crossbows/85652.md?page=3)