German reorganization

The Germans civ is a huge abuse. Ruler, Home City and a few things are Prussian, the flag and most of the things refer to the HRE, and only a few Cards refer to the Austrian Empire. This civ covers a very large area of Europe; literally the whole of Central Europe, and even due to the presence of Northern Italy in HRE - also Italy. Due to the lack of a Polish civ, and the presence of a Polish Charter, we can even say that the civ Germans also represent the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Is it true that this is too much for one civ?

We all know that the developers had already planned to add the Italians civ to the original version of AoE 3, but unfortunately abandoned this idea. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at the time of AoE 3 had its Golden Age and was a huge empire. The mighty Winged Hussars crushed all enemies in its path. It gained eternal glory by defending Vienna from the Ottoman expansion, thanks to which Europe survived.
But adding both of these is almost self-evident. Here we will focus on the issue of generally understood Germans.

Holy Roman Empire

I propose renaming the Germans civ to Holy Roman Empire (such a name should not shock anyone after adding United States civ). This Civ is the best in representing all the small states that make up the HRE, which were very important in the history of Europe and also very rich.
Changelog for this civ:

  • Renaming from the Germans to the Holy Roman Empire
  • Home City change from Berlin to Frankfurt
  • Change of ruler from Frederick the Great to Charles of Luxembourg
  • The Uhlan with the addition of Poles, Austrians and Prussia would cease to be a Unique Unit but simply a replacement for the Hussar. So HRE civ will keep any bonuses and Cards associated with that unit. The new UU for the HRE civ would be the Saxon Infantry.
    *Age Up would involve the election of an elector, eg Saxon, Czech, Brandenburg, etc. A purely visual change (other portraits for Politicians and a different name for them. Maybe even a short history of this country?)
  • Doppelsoldner and War Wagon - Royal Guard

Austria-Hungary

Austro-Hungary was an empire that could hardly be called German. The Germans accounted for about 23% of the population in this country. More than three-quarters of the population was diverse: Hungarians, Romanians, Italians, Jews, and many Slavic nations (it was the only empire in history to contain all three groups of Slavs). This empire connected the inhabitant of Krakow with the inhabitant of Venice, the inhabitant of Budapest with the inhabitant of Lviv, or the inhabitant of Prague with the inhabitant of Zagreb - something extraordinary. It is worth noting that this empire included territory not represented in the game. It could also represent nations that could not be represented by Germans civ for logical reasons. It is also worth noting that the Austrian civ would be very much needed for a potential Napoleonic campaign (and Historical Battles), the Battle of Vienna (no Austrians would be very bizarre) and a potential Thirty Years’ War Campaign.
Features of this new civ:

Home City

  • Capital - Vienna
  • Personality - Maria Theresa von Habsburg

Units

Barracks

  • Halberdier
  • Hajduk - weak archer. They would use axe in hand-to-hand combat.
  • Pandurs - ranged light gunpowder infantry. They would use Yatagan in hand-to-hand combat. This unit would be the equivalent of the Russian Unique Unit - Strelet
  • Crossbowman
  • Musketeer (Royal Guard)

Stable

  • War Wagon (unlock with Home City Card)
  • Uhlan
  • Hungarian Hussars
  • Dragoon (Royal Guard)

Artillery Foundry

  • Grenadier
  • Culverin
  • Falconet
  • Petard
  • Mortar
  • Horse Artillery

Unique Features

  • Grenzer - Austria-Hungary civ have a unique counterpart to Militiaman. He loses HP, but only to 75% HP. They train in groups of 5. They can also be summoned in the Outpost and in the Fort (up to two times per building).

  • They age up by dynastic marriages. For example:
    Age II:
    Spanish Princess: Ships 200 Coin + War Dog (Explorer can be trained)
    French Princess: Ships 3 Coureur des Bois + The Explorer can use Hot Air Baloon
    Dutch Princess: Bank Wagon + 2 semi-fattened Cows

  • Hofrat is a Austria-Hungary civ hero. Can train Grenzers. Has a Big Button “Abolition of Serfdom”. This ability allows you to take over enemy buildings.

  • They have a new building - Rathaus (equivalent of the Capitol). Can train a Hofrats.

Prussians

Home City

  • Capital - Berlin (present now at Germans civ)
  • Personality - Frederick the Great (present now at Germans civ)

Units

Barracks

  • Pikeman
  • Silesian Schuetzen - Elite rifle-armed troops. They shoot from a long distance and deal massive damage at the cost of a very low rate of fire and training limit (only 10 such units at the same time)
  • Landwehr - weak infantry armed with muskets. Uses bayonet in hand-to-hand combat
  • Crossbowman
  • Skirmisher (Royal Guard - Prussian Needle Gunner)

Stable

  • Uhlan (Royal Guard - Totenkopf)
  • Teutonic Knight - Archaic heavy cavalry armed with a lance. Modeled on the Knights of the Order (Teutonic Knights and the Livonian Order). This unit would be the equivalent of the Elmeti
  • Dragoon

Artillery Foundry

  • Howitzer - large ranged artillery
  • Grenadier
  • Culverin
  • Falconet
  • Petard
  • Mortar

Unique Features

  • Offizier is a Prussian civ hero. It has a Big Button “Prussian Discipline”. This ability increases the rate of fire and durability of ranged infantry units. He can build Forts.

  • They have a unique Outpost - Grenzposten in which can train Landwehr.

  • Prussian Settlers can build Factories after Age Up to Industrial Age (limit of 5 factories at the same time. Very expensive building).

  • Their military buildings have + 15% HP

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So “Holy Roman Empire” has Czech Age Up and “Austria-Hungary” has War Wagons? Austria was part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Why couldn’t they have a War Wagon? After all, the Czechia were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. If there were Polish civ, I would not have picked up the HC Card “Polish Winged Hussars”.

Right. Austria belonged to HRE, but Saint Stephen’s Crown states did not ever belong to HRE. Just like Brandenburg and Silesia, which were part of the Kingdom of Prussia.

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You might want to use a different emperor for the HRE, Charles IV is a bit too medieval I think. Might I suggest Charles VII? Very suitable if you want to avoid the Habsburg emperors and ties in nicely to the settler wagons as well. Munich might make a suitable home city too.
Also nothing wrong with using the standard politicians, there are not enough electors to fill all the age ups even with Napoleons aditions, unless you want to reuse electors

Also just name Austria-Hungary “Austria”. I think that suits it much better with what you’re trying to convey here.

I like the base idea of doing a bit of reorganization with the German civilization.

In my opinion, there are some timeline issues to address here.

  1. Austria-Hungary was not a sovereign state until 1867. That seems way too late to be a full civilization in the game. It is probably better to go with just ‘Austrians’ and have the civ be the Austrian Habsburgs, the Austrian Empire, and Austria-Hungary all combined
  2. The HRE is also a bit sticky. It really stops being a thing when its component states gain almost complete sovereignty in 1648. Additionally, the Habsburgs ruled it from 1440-1806 (with a few non-Habsburg emperors from 1742-1765). I’m not sure that it is a great fit if Austria is also going to be in the game. As someone else mentioned, Charles of Luxemburg was ruler in 1355 which is WAY before the timeline for AOE3.
  3. The Prussians were not a power until ~1740 and became a major/great power during the Napoleonic wars. It can definitely still be included, but they aren’t as fundamental as the HRE or Austrians. As you mentioned Poland-Lithuana, that should definitely get in over Prussians (for the time period). This point isn’t as strong since we have the USA, Lakota, and Japanese in the game though.

My recommendation: Combine HRE and Austria since they were almost synonymous during the time period anyways. I think it would still be fine to use units from other German states well (probably primarily the southern states like Bavaria and their settler wagons since they frequently allied with Austria and were part of the HRE). The HRE also is your least detailed section, which I think leads a little more credibility that it should be combined.

If you want to keep the HRE (representing areas not part of or had close times with Austria, Prussia, or Britain in Hanover’s case) separate, I do not think it should get in over more important civilizations of the time. It would basically be… Bavaria + Saxony.

Another option could be along the lines of the North German Confederation (anachronistic, but useful for grouping) and Austria-Hungary + South Germans. Probably still simplify it down to Prussians and Austrians. This probably isn’t too bad since other civilzations include elements from neighboring/culturally close nations.

Side note - Giving Prussia Silesian Schuetzen might be a bit awkward since Austria would control that region for half of timeframe of AOE3. Maybe just ‘Schuetzen’?

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I think Charles IV is the best fit for this civ. It is quite medieval, so they fit together perfectly. He was the king of the Czech Crown (Czech Republic, Moravia, Silesia, Lusatia and Brandenburg) so he would be a symbol of the diversity of HRE. Other emperors were more “German”.

In the case of Home City, I would bet on HRE Free Cities for this civ. Mostly in Frankfurt, Aachen and Nuremberg - which would have a medieval look (eye-catching). A city like Munich would favor Bavaria, as would for example Dresden (favor Saxony). So the best solution would be one of these Free Cities.

The name Austrians for civ would be perceived as another German civ. Austro-Hungary would mean that this civ specifically represents the Austro-Hungarian Empire. If that was the name of the civ, the United States civ wouldn’t look weird anymore. I would also call civ the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to refer to a specific multinational empire and not to a single nation.

HRE would be a renaissance civ.
Austro-Hungary would be the 19th century civ.
Prussians would be the 18th century civ.

I want these civs to be based on their heyday. Austro-Hungary should definitely appear in this game - the name of AustroHungary may be at the end of the AoE 3 timeframe, but that’s just the name. Prussia became a power thanks to Frederick the Great, who is already in the game.

Let me remind you of the AoE 3 - 1492-1876 time frame (then Franz Joseph I ruled Austria-Hungary :wink: ).

Austro-Hungary fits AoE 3. Maybe the name of this empire only came into being in 1867, but the Habsburgs were simultaneously the kings of Hungary, Bohemia and Croatia for virtually the entire AoE 3 timeframe. So the name Austro-Hungary is cool.

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Gotcha. I completely disagree with you.

In my opinion, we should not put renaissance civs in the game. Technically the game starts in 1492, but we have musketeers that can counter cavalry in age 2. The renaissance went until ~1600, which is fair, but the HRE basically becomes a mirror image of the two other civs in later ages.

Including all 3 as a sort of progression also seems weird. It’s like having England, Great Britain, and Scotland. Or having Castille, Leon, and Spain (different time period, but same idea).

The end date is pretty ambiguous, but having the formation of the nation happen in the last year of the time frame seems like a bad idea.

Go and theorize away, more power to you. But I do not agree.

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3 german factions is over the top. like it just is no matter how individually interesting you could make them.

3 skirmisher units, presumably all in age 2 is over the top, there is a reason factions usually only get 1 unit of a type, and when they dont they are age separated, because if not then there will always just be the obvious choice.

also i just dont feel like musketeers should be an Austrian guard unit, sure the Austrian army relied on musketeers heavily but they are also had a reputation (esp. in the Napoleonic age) of just not performing well compared to other nations. if Austria is added their infantry at large should kinda mirror Russia, using numbers to win with some better melee infantry similar to current germany.

i feel like we already argued this to death but kinda same point, if you have 2 similar units then 1 of them is objectively going to be the default unit. also personally if i think about “famous” austrian cavalry i would think of Hussars and Uhlans, not dragoons.

too strong of an ability, and also seems pretty weird for Austria of all nations to have that. Serfdom continued as a system there until 1848, pretty late by most European standards.

i like the Howitzer.

honestly i dont know what to think about this, i would probably replace landwehr and Silesian Schütze with just 1 common unit.

why does Prussia of all places have an archaic unit, i would expect this out of Poland, Austria or Italy but not prussia.

but yeah anyways, rather want Denmark, Italy and Poland than 3 german civs.

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Just a fun fact: In the original German translation of the game, the German faction was named “Prussia” and had the appropriate flag. This also fit the overall theme of the Civ better. Instead of renaming it to HRE, Prussia would be more appropriate, if one deems it necessary at all.

Also, I share the previously mentioned attitude of one Germanic civ being enough. It’d be simply overkill, when so many corners of the world are still underrepresented and who’s representation would make for way more interesting gameplay (like Africa soon, or the Middle East).

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I also think that Germany (as HRE) needs an improvement, especially regarding their unit list which is overly medieval, and at the same time their RG mentions units that are later than the game’s timeline.
The main changes I would suggest would be:
To the barracks:
1 - Doppelsoldners continue, but are nerfed, cheapened and become archaic units. Instead of using Zweinhanders swords, they use halberds, transforming themselves into a substitute for the pikeman.
2 - They now have access to the musketeer.
3 - Lose the crossbowman.
4 - Skirmisher’s Royal Guard is renamed Gemeiner/Schutze, or some more appropriate German name, I don’t know how it might spell Fusilier in German…
To the stable:
1 - Uhlans converted into lancers, with a small bonus against infantry, lose RG;
2 - Have access to Hussars;
3 - War Wagons replaced by a new single unit, maybe the name might be Chevauleger. The unit has high hit points, reasonably high ranged attack, but its anti cavalry bonuses are only melee attack.
For artillery, they could have access to HP and Attack cards, as well as at least one combat card for musketeers and skirms.
I think a good new leader could be the Holy Emperor Leopold, or even Joseph II.

Interesting, I never heard of this before. I also can’t find anything about this anywhere though? Only some German youtube vids where they call it “Preussen” but you can still clearly see “Deutsche” whenever they select anything.
I know the Prussian flag was in the original manual but I have never seen it ingame, they instead opted for that fictional flag that looked more like a mangled chicken than an actual Eagle. I doubt the German version got a different flag than any other version.

How would calling the civ Prussia be better for its overall theme? The unit roster is clearly not Prussian, and there is not a single card for the Germans that references Prussia.
All we have is Frederick, Berlin and the Needlegunner. None of which actually have an effect on the gameplay of the Germans. Frederick only appears should you fight an AI opponent, and home cities are not only renamable but also are rarely seen outside of the homescreen when starting the game. Only the Needlegunner makes a frequent appearance ingame and even that is poorly done, not actually acting like its namesake. It could easily be renamed without any effect on gameplay.
The Germans we are playing is the Holy Roman Empire, we see it in its units and referenced to in its cards. We’ll probably never know why they went with Frederick for the leaderhead, but it has probably something to do with recognisability. He is after all a well known historical figure, a historical rock star so to say. Prussia however is not well represented in the German faction, it lacks for example the Musketeers and Grenadiers it was so famous for.

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but you can still clearly see “Deutsche”

You are right about that, I remember now too: it was called “Deutsche” (Germans), but had a flag closest to a Prussian one in the original.

But even if the faction goes beyond just Prussia, I personally think Germans > Prussia > HRE name wise.

Prussian elements:

  • Frederick the Great
  • Berlin
  • Needlegunner
  • Czapka Uhlans
    Czapka Hat: Austrian origin, used by many (also Prussians), mostly Polish.
    Uhlan: Lithuanian origin, later Polish. Used my many.
    Prussia comprised of mostly modern-day Polish and Lithuanian territory (e.g. 1800 neither of those existed at all, only Prussia so to say). So one can see how that unit fits quite well, better to Prussia anyone else.
    Czapka - Wikipedia

HRE elements:

  • Doppelsöldner
  • (if we are being generous we could put the Uhlan here, too)

Neutral elements:

  • War Wagons (used by Czech revels against HRE)

In general I’d say the umbrella term Germans fits also better due to the dysfunctionality of the HRE. If we speak about big powers during HRE times, usually Prussia and Austria are mentioned, not really the HRE as such. A prime example is during the downfall of the HRE, when Napoleons primary adversaries in the immediate French vicinity were Austria, Italy, and Prussia. Additionally, Prussian fame due to its Fredericks and military tradition, suits the overall AOE3 premise of colonization etc. better, since Prussian military advisors were also all over the place (e.g. USA during the Independence War, or in Japan during the Meiji Restoration).

I get the idea that Germans feels kind of vague and unprecise in contrast to HRE or Prussians, yet I’d rather leave it like it is and maybe add Italy to the mix later down the line. HRE would be centered around a kind of Empire that ended at one point, whilst “Germans” can also better focus on the legacies of German people in the new world, be they Prussian, Austrian, or otherwise.

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image
I don’t know about that, double headed eagles were an imperial symbol not used by the Prussians. Then again it doesnt even really look like an eagle tbh. The flag was a major scew up and was rightfully fixed in the DE.

Austria controlled an equal amount of Polish land after the partitions, the RG name comes from Austria and there is an Austrian themed card ( Lipizzaner Cavalry) that directly affects them. Furthermore the Spanish riding school is also referenced in a card and is closely associated with the Lipizzaner breed. Austria has a stonger claim on this reference than Prussia imo.

Besides the current flag which is present during all gameplay. You can also add the Church card and its associated techs here. Palatine settlements refer to one of the Electorates of the HRE and Ive allready mentioned the Lipizzaner cavalry and the Spanish riding school.
Besides that the faction has a strong mercenary focus that also could be considered as a HRE reference.

Are an awkward unit, Id rather not even have them ingame tbh. But that ship has sailed. Theyre Bohemian which was under direct Habsburg control for much of the games time period.

That is very true. I always thought they shouldve added Prussia and Austria instead of the “Germans” we have now. But that is something we can’t or should change anymore.

The DE edition was willing to make the flag change to make the faction more HRE, and I think that was a good call (especially considering how that old flag looked). I don’t know why they didnt push through with their decision and replace Frederick, Berlin and the Needlegunner as well. Untill a dev speaks up we might never know, or perhaps it is coming still? Are they saving the change for the Prussian civ reveal? :wink:
I think Holy roman empire would be a great name for the faction but wouldnt mind the current “Gemans” staying as is either. Prussians is out of the question for me though, the unit roster is just too non-Prussian for that to work in my opinion.
Even with Frederick remaining, he still was the Elector of Brandenburg. He might’ve disliked the HRE but he was still part of it even when waging war upon it. Berlin can easily be renamed to any other German city if anyone so pleases. The only thing that really should go is that awkward “Needlegunner” RG name, its not only from after the collapse of the HRE but also kinda represented wrong.

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